Talk:Macedonians (ethnic group)/Archive 2

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This is wrong. First of all, considering the fact that the most interested users in this article are Greeks, Bulgarians (having a long history of denying the very existence of Macedonians) or Macedonians, while also having in mind that Greek and Bulgarian users of the English Wikipedia are far more numerous - the "Macedonians" option could be simply outnumbered. That does not mean that it this is the majority view of the name of Macedonians. Second, the neutral users of this page would see the extremely biased article already called Macedonian Slavs, along with "facts" that I believe are giving far more weight to the Greek POV than it is actually accepted in reality. Third, there are obvious mistakes in the presented facts because, no country (except Greece), actually denies the existence of a nation called Macedonians (reffering to the people X), which is widely accepted in the international community. No international institution (INCLUDING the UN), nor government (except Greece) denies that Macedonians ("people X") should be called Macedonians. Forth, to cite a neutral admin (ChrisO) of Wikipedia concerning the issue of the use of "Macedonians Slavs" - which seems quite logical: However, "Macedonian Slavs" also has ambiguities - Bulgarians, Serbs etc who live in geographical Macedonia are Slavs, and (geographical) Macedonians, and therefore also "Macedonian Slavs". It also isn't the most commonly used term by the ethnic group in question. Fifth, this black and white situation (Macedonians vs Macedonians Slavs) is not a good solution to end this dispute, because, if the use of the term Macedonians causes confusion, this could be resolved in a less dramatic way - Macedonians (ethnicity), Macedonians (ethnic group), Macedonians (nationality) or Ethnic Macedonians. That means that there are other options, as well. Sixth, although this is a naming convention about an article, it may be a too sensitive issue to resolve in a poll, since it is connected with some basic human self-identification rights. Also, the other options should be mentioned, and some baseless parts of the facts section should be presented a bit more neutral. (I will add some indisputed facts there, I'll try to be as neutral as possible). --FlavrSavr 02:04, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I believe that your concerns are misplaced.

This poll is advertised on Wikipedia:Current surveys, which should attract more eyes. If you feel that there are other places where it should be advertised, please do so.
I tried to list the facts and sources above as neutrally as I could, and by the reactions so far it would appear that my personal POV is not showing very much. If I had thought that this should be decided on the basis of the current text of the article, I wouldn't have gone through the trouble of writing the above description of the dispute.
If you read the above information carefully, you will see that it says what you want it to say.
If you read the above information carefully, you will see that it says what you want it to say.
As the wording says, if the option "Macedonians" win, the People X will be called "Macedonians" and the articles will be properly dissambiguated, so I believe that it already says what you want it to say.
This debate has been going on for years. It has caused many edit wars and has consistently involved personal attacks, ethnic slurs and other forms of bad taste. A poll seems the only available option.

Zocky 02:20, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

OK, I see that the article was changed during my previous comment. It seemed to me that the facts section was to be left permanent by the wikipedia admins, while it was obvious that some facts were missing. In addition, I will post several objections to the structure of this poll. --FlavrSavr 02:28, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The following citation from the article "Macedonian Slavs" is not meant to trigger a historical discussion, I cite it because of its, in my opinion, biased structure:" Some nationalist Macedonian Slav historians claim that their people were the descendants of the ancient Macedonians who mixed with slavs when they invaded the Balkan peninsula, but this is strongly disputed by Greek historians, who claim that the ancient Macedonian was just one more of the Greek states. Greek historians bring as proof the language of ancient Macedonians, the religion, and the civilization which were all Greek. All ancient Macedonian inscriptions on monuments, temples etc. are in Greek. The ancient Macedonian religion was the ancient Greek religion and they adored the same heroes like Hercules. Another proof is that when ancient Macedonians as the ruling Greek state conquered the world they spread the Greek civilization and philosophy. Another proof (out of many) that the ancient Macedonians felt Greeks is that Alexander the great after his first victory over the Persians dedicated all the spoils to the temple of Athena in Athens saying "Alexander and the Greeks except Spartans from the barbarians who live in Asia". Not even a slight note that the Hellenic character of the ancient Macedonians is in fact disputed by other historians other than some nationalist Macedonian Slav historians, not a mention of the attitude of Demosthenes towards Macedonians, etc. I'm not going to a discussion whether Ancient Macedonians were Greeks or not but to add "another proof (out of many)", that the current article is far from NPOV. --FlavrSavr 04:27, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's what people X call themselvses and wish other people to call them. + "They think that is their basic human right" or something in that sense? I'm not sure because i'm rather biased by definition (I guess): This might be insinuating, cause it sort of puts People X in a position of a victim, although they definitely think that way. --FlavrSavr 05:37, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)