Talk:Wilfred Talbot Smith

Wilfred Talbot Smith has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. Review: December 21, 2013. (Reviewed version).

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Wilfred Talbot Smith/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: J Milburn (talk · contribs) 19:49, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I really enjoyed reviewing the article on Montalban, so I'm happy to offer some thoughts here. J Milburn (talk) 19:49, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• First thing's first, the sources seem reasonable. The Starr source is probably the worst, but, as long as you're careful with any surprising claims, it should be OK.
  • Funnily enough, the Starr book is very scholarly; from its use of referencing and detail, I am confident that it could have been published by an academic press rather than the rather specialist Teitan Press. It might be of note here that the author, Martin P. Starr, has recently co-edited a volume on Crowley for Oxford University Press with Henrik Bogdan. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:06, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • The fact he's published for such a reputable press on the same topic area certainly adds credence! J Milburn (talk) 19:43, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Images:
  • Do we have any information on the original source of File:W.T. Smith.jpg? Either way, could it be mentioned in the rationale?
  • The sourcing on File:Jane Wolfe Cefalù.jpg is woefully inadequate; I suspect it is public domain, but more information is really going to be needed.
  • The sourcing on File:Grady Louis McMurtry 1941.JPG is also a little questionable, but I'm happy to leave that one on this occasion.
    • I'm looking into all three of these, but it isn't as easy finding the necessary information as I had hoped. Will get back to you. Midnightblueowl (talk) 23:48, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've not had much luck here J Milburn; even the Starr biography doesn't seem to specify the origins of the Smith image. I guess removing the Jane Wolfe image might be necessary ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:06, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Perhaps just mention that the Starr book doesn't provide any sourcing info for the Smith image in the rationale, and that'll be fine. It'd be a shame to lose the Wolfe image; try contacting the uploader. Rodneyorpheus (talk · contribs) may be able to help; he tracked down some sourcing for Crowley images. J Milburn (talk) 15:35, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • I've added a comment to that effect on the File:W.T. Smith.jpg image and left a comment for User:Rodneyorpheus. Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:25, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
            • Okay J, I've heard nothing from Rodneyorpheus yet – I don't think that he has been active on Wikipedia for a while. That being the case, I think that I should removed the Jane Wolfe image from the page (it can always be re-added at a later date). Does that sound okay to you ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:37, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
              • That seems reasonable; hopefully the issue can be resolved. We have less problematic images of John Carradine, if you'd prefer. I'll take another look through the article soon, but I suspect this is ready for GA status. J Milburn (talk) 15:05, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
                • I don't think that we can really use an image of Carradine; he's very peripheral to Smith's life, really. Hence he only gets a passing mention in the article. I shall remove the Jane Wolfe image. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:50, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Onto the prose:

• Is Regina Kahl notable? Don't be scared of redlinks.
  • I think so. Link added. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:01, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "They founded an incorporated Church of Thelema which gave weekly public performances of the Gnostic Mass from their home in Hollywood, and seeking to revive the inactive North American OTO, in 1935 Smith founded the OTO Agape Lodge." Difficult to follow
  • I've divided this into two sentences, which hopefully make it quite a bit more readable. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:26, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "Agape Lodge leader, to be replaced by Parsons" How about "replacing him with"?
  • Agreed, and done! Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:26, 11 December 2013 (UTC)'[reply]
• Malibu is a dablink in the infobox
  • Corrected! Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:26, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• The early life all feels a bit sensationalist, especially considering its cited to Starr's book from an esoteric press, rather than a more academic work. "illicit liason", "physically abused", "rescued"... I also wonder whether we have any more academic sources which even mention the affair?
  • I will vouch for the scholarly quality of Starr's book (it's not at all like most books produced through esoteric presses). Any sensationalism is more to do with my use of prose rather than his, I'm afraid. I've made some alterations there myself, replacing "illicit liason" with "illigitemate child" and "rescued" with "removed from". Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:26, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "confectioners warehouse" Apostrophe!
  • Done! Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:26, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "Eastern religion, yoga, and Western esotericism" Links would be useful, perhaps?
  • Agreed, and done. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:26, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Do we have a better link than anhalonium? The target page doesn't really explain much
  • I'm looking into it, but off the top of my head, I'm not sure. I thought about linking to peyote, but while they are similar, I'm not sure that they are the same. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:26, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've changed the prose to "the entheogenic properties of anhalonium" which should explain the use of anhalonium a bit better. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:36, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "Personal problems wracked Smith's marriage" I'm not keen on "wracked", and you previously said it was unclear whether or not he married
  • Good point on both; I've re-written the sentence in question. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:36, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "resigned from the OTO lodge so as to prevent their problems affecting the group. Their resignations were rejected" I'm not certain about this, but if the resignations were rejected, they didn't actually resign?
  • I've replaced "resigned" with "tried to resign"; that should do the trick. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:36, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Kath/Katherine?
  • Changing both to Katherine. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:36, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Ipsissimus isn't the link you want it to be
  • Well spotted! Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:36, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Just so I'm clear- White designed the house in Vancouver which became the "Vancouver lodge", then became a key member, to the extent that it became moribund upon his death?
  • I think that he might have been a member of the Vancouver-based British Columbia Lodge No. 1 prior to designing the house. But I'm not entirely sure about that. I should make it clear that the lodge itself is not a physical building; as in Freemasonry, the lodge is a localised branch of the order. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Could that be made clear in the article? That's probably part of the reason I struggled to follow this! J Milburn (talk) 21:48, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've tried to make it clearer by replacing "Vancouver lodge" with "British Columbia Lodge No. 1", if that helps ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 23:32, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Is Universal Brotherhood worth a redlink?
  • I think so. Universal Brotherhood actually links to Theosophy, although this group was separate to the Theosophical Society, so I've red-linked it to Universal Brotherhood (esoteric organisation). Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "Cecil Frederick Russell ... the Choronzon Club" Again?
  • Forgive me, but I don't think I understand what you mean here... Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sorry- worth redlinking? J Milburn (talk) 21:18, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "was unnerved by his paedophilic comments" This is definitely the kind of comment that requires qualification
  • Following the Thelemic command of "Do What Thou Wilt", Russell embraced his sexuality, which was largely aimed at children. Or so Smith claimed, anyway. I shall change the prose to reflect that this was a claim on Smith's behalf. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "with auto-suggestion to found" What's an auto-suggestion? Is it what is linked to? Is the fact that it was an auto-suggestion important?
  • I can confirm that it links to the correct article in this case. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "in the fall of 1927" Recommend autumn, which is familiar both sides of the Atlantic
  • Ah, I wasn't sure whether "Autumn" would be understood in North America, but I'll take your word for it. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "where they were married on 24 August 1927 at the Forest Lawn Memorial Park in Glendale" You earlier said it was unclear if they got married?
  • I've tried to clarify the prose here. Basically, there is no paperwork evidence that Smith had ever married or divorced Nem, but he would nevertheless claim to be married; perhaps she was his common law wife ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• I'm worried about all the sexual details; again, I am inclined to think that these sort of claims should be qualified.
  • Well, they are referenced to Starr's book, and his is a very scholarly work. Remember that Thelema as a religion always encourages its followers to be very open about their sexuality, and Smith (like Crowley) wrote all about his sexual encounters in his magical diaries, which Starr consulted during his research. It's not for naught that the FBI file on the Thelemite community in the US characterised it as a "probable love cult" ! Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "devoted herself to him" isn't so neutral
  • Agreed, and I've changed the prose. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:28, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• What's OHO?
  • Outer Head of the Order; I've ensured that it specifies this in the text. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:28, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "fearing for his mortality" is a little too prosaic, I feel
  • Changed to "believing his death to be immanent". Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:28, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• What does "incorporated" mean? Do we have a link?
  • I'd say that that's a fairly standard term, but am more than happy to link it if you think it necessary. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:28, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• I'm struck by continual references to ranks and such within Thelema; this article should be written for a general audience, and a general audience isn't familiar with the Thelemite hierarchy!
  • Very good point! I shall try and add the correct links in throughout the text. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:28, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• What do you mean by "the group's private activities"?
  • Their private ritual activities. Will clarify that in the prose. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:28, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "Louis T. Culling and Roy Leffingwell" Worth links?
  • Probably not to be honest. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not aware that they went on to do anything particularly significant. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:42, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "with Sara" Northrup?
  • Yes! Good point. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:42, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "Crowley, Germer, and Schneider began spreading lies about Smith, including that he was responsible for raping initiates, claims that were denied by many Lodge members" Another massive claim- do you have any other sources?
  • I personally think that this should be sufficient, but I will check. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:10, 12 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "the Lesser banishing" Why the capital?
  • Oh, I copied-and-pasted that from the actual article title; hence the upper case L. Silly mistake of mine. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:42, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "which depressed him" I'm not sure about depressed- it's a little medical
  • Fair point. From Starr's descriptions of Smith's experiences at this time, it certainly sounds a lot like he was suffering from the horrors of clinical depression, but he was never diagnosed as such and so we can't state that here. I've replaced with "greatly upset". Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:42, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "his own house for himself and his family, which he named "Hoc Id Est."" Who's his family by this point? Also, punctuation outside quotes?
  • Helen and their son. Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:42, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Did he die of the prostate cancer? If so, perhaps Category:Deaths from prostate cancer?
  • Yes, I believe so. I will add the category. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:42, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is very strong- my only major worry comes from the fact that there are some pretty sensational claims sourced to a not-completely-academic work. J Milburn (talk) 21:04, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just a few more comments:

• "The Agape Lodge and North American OTO became largely moribund after Smith's death, but the movement was revived by McMurtry in the 1960s. Although not widely known among the esoteric community during his lifetime, Smith was the subject of a 2003 biography by Martin P. Starr." This mini "legacy" section doesn't seem to be in the main article. It may be worth moving it wholesale to a section of its own and padding it with any other information you have.
  • Fair point, I'll remove it for now. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:18, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Could we perhaps have the birth name in the lead?
  • I've got no problem with that, but I don't think it particularly necessary. As far as I'm aware, he went under that name for only a very short period of time. Your call, I guess. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:18, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "the Minerval degree initiation" Link?
  • Done. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:09, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "the Rites of Isis" Link?
  • Added, but its a redlink. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:09, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "Master Magician within the Lodge, and in March 1916 received the Probationer level" More stuff which will be alien to most readers
  • I've added a link to A∴A∴#Probationer. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:12, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "Right Worshipful Master" is another
  • I'm not sure what we could link to here. Personally I think it could probably stay as it is, unless you have any other suggestions ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:24, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "Local Recorder" is another
  • I'm not sure what we could link to here. Personally I think it could probably stay as it is, unless you have any other suggestions ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:24, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "Frater Superior and Outer Head of the Order" More
  • I'm not sure what we could link to here. Personally I think it could probably stay as it is, unless you have any other suggestions ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:24, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Where is "Rainbow Valley"?
  • Right, I spent about 15 minutes going through Starr's book, and infuriatingly he doesn't specify exactly where it is, which implies that it was somewhere local to Pasadena. I subsequently found this nearby "Rainbow Valley", so i'll add the link in to the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:36, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "In September 1944 Smith went on a second magical retirement" Do you mean retreat? I've never heard the phrase "magical retirement".
  • It certainly seems like a retreat, but Starr's work uses the term "magical retirement", which I believe to be the precise terminology used in Thelema. That being the case, I'd recommend that we keep it. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:44, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "During the retreat he learned that Kahl, his former lover, had died, which greatly upset him." Unless I'm mistaken, you haven't mentioned yet that Smith and Kahl were lovers.
  • It is mentioned at the end of the second paragraph in the "Los Angeles: 1922–1935" section. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:18, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Can we translate Hoc Id Est?
  • Done! Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:18, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Looking very strong; I do think it'll be ready for GA status very soon. After that, perhaps try to find someone to smooth out the prose a little further and you'll be ready for FAC (though be ready to defend the reliability of the Starr book). J Milburn (talk) 20:17, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I'm now happy that this is ready for GA status. A bit more work is required before FAC; I'd work to define/link any jargon, and a fresh pair of eyes to give a thorough copyedit would be good. I know you're already looking into a legacy section, which would be an excellent addition. In any case, great work so far, and I do hope to see this at FAC in the future! J Milburn (talk) 12:09, 21 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]