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Case name | Closed |
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Conflict of interest management | 13 Apr 2024 |
Request name | Motions | Case | Posted |
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Amendment request: Conduct in deletion-related editing | none | (orig. case) | 30 April 2024 |
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Initiated by Cunard at 05:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Previous discussions
This was previously discussed in an amendment request closed on 20 April 2024 and on Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests.
Background
Before the 2 August 2022 deletion topic ban, TenPoundHammer nominated numerous articles for proposed deletion and articles for deletion. He also redirected numerous articles in 2022. This link shows the last 500 redirects he did before the 2 August 2022 topic ban. If you search for the text "Tags: New redirect Reverted" on the page, there are 189 results. At least 189 of the redirects he did between April 2022 and July 2022 were reverted.
TenPoundHammer resumed the actions that led me to create Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1101#TenPoundHammer: prods and AfDs, which was closed as "This matter has been escalated to the arbitration committee, which has opened a full case at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing on this and other related matters" and is cited as "June 2022 ANI" in this finding of fact.
Evidence
I started a talk page discussion with TenPoundHammer on 2 March 2024 about TenPoundHammer's blanking and redirecting of Monkey-ed Movies (link), Skating's Next Star (link), Monkey Life (link), 2 Minute Drill (game show) (link), and Monsters We Met (link) for lacking sources. I was able to find sources for these articles so reverted the redirects and added the sources. I asked TenPoundHammer to stop blanking and redirecting articles as it was leading to notable topics no longer having articles.
TenPoundHammer continued to redirect articles on notable topics. Between 11 March 2024 and 16 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected 18 articles. Of those 18 articles, 14 were about television series (a topic I focus on): 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14. After spending many hours searching for sources, I reverted all 14 redirects and added sources to all 14 articles. For several of the topics (such as Queer Eye for the Straight Girl and Dice: Undisputed), sources could be easily found with a Google search.
Between 20 March 2024 and 21 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected three book articles (another topic I focus on): 1, 2, and 3. I reverted the three redirects and added book reviews.
Between 20 March 2024 and 21 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected 33 articles. Almost all of those redirects are in the music topic area which I do not focus on. I am concerned about the large number of redirects of topics that could be notable.
On 12 April 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected the television show Las Vegas Garden of Love with the edit summary "unsourced since 2010, time to lose it". I found sources for the article and reverted the redirect. I found two of the sources (The New York Times and Variety) on the first page of a Google search for "Las Vegas Garden of Love ABC". TenPoundHammer previously prodded this same article in May 2022, and another editor contested that prodding ("contest PROD, nom nominated 200 articles in a single day so it's impossible a BEFORE was done for each").
Analysis
Wikipedia:Fait accompli is an applicable principle. Reviewing this volume of redirects consumes substantial editor time. The redirects are leading to numerous notable topics no longer having articles. The redirects prevent the topics from undergoing community review at AfD, which TenPoundHammer is topic banned from.
Blank-and-redirects get significantly less attention than prods and AfDs. Television-related prods and AfDs are listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Television and Wikipedia:WikiProject Television/Article alerts. But blank-and-redirects are not listed anywhere.
It is unclear to me whether the existing topic ban includes proposing articles for deletion. I recommend that the topic ban be expanded to prohibit both proposing articles for deletion and blanking and redirecting pages since there is previous disruptive editing in both areas where he has prodded or redirected a large number of articles about notable topics. This remedy does something similar for a different editor in the same arbitration case.
Here are quotes from three arbitrators about the topic ban in the 2022 proposed decision regarding the redirects and and proposed deletion:
"... Missing PROD was not intentional on my part but that also can be added." (link)
Cunard (talk) 05:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
I assumed I was already topic-banned from PRODding articles, so I don't know why that was brought up. (Similarly, I don't know what the ruling is on deprodding but it's historically not been an issue for me, and I personally don't think it would be fair to deny me a chance to say "hey, wait, I can fix this".) Speed has been an issue, as has blunt edit summaries when I redirect something. Lately when I feel there is little to no content to merge, I try to spell out my WP:BEFORE steps in the edit summary when I redirect. I also generally don't unlink the page, to save the hassle if someone like Cunard comes along to revert my redirect and dump in some sources. One reason I don't try to initiate merger discussion is because no matter how hard I try, no one ever seems to respond. Witness Talk:Regis_Philbin#Proposed_merge_of_Joy_Philbin_into_Regis_Philbin, which opened two months ago and has had several reminders, but not a single person has lifted a finger. How long is that discussion going to gather dust? "There is no deadline" doesn't mean "do nothing and hope the problem somehow fixes itself". If I am to be topic-banned from WP:BLARing, then how can I get some action going in merger discussions? Since again, every fucking time I try, nobody acts like I'm even there -- but then two seconds after I give in and finally merge/redirect the damn thing, someone swoops in to revert me. I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 23:29, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
I am Involved here. TPH and I came up together on this project and occasionally ran into one another on country talk pages although it has been some time since we substantively interacted. I also have the utmost respect for Cunard's research at AfD in that they not only say "sources exist" but find and annotate them for participants to assess. This is especially helpful personally in east Asian language sourcing. That said, Cunard's case here is strong. TPH sees it as their duty to clean up the project, but I don't think their strong feelings are backed by our policies, nor is there a pressing need to remove this content. The project will not collapse and these are mostly not BLPs. If they are, someone else can handle it. I believe TPH's topic ban should be expanded to include BLAR which is a form of deletion. I have no strong feelings on PROD personally. Star Mississippi 01:17, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Suggest:
TPH has been here long enough that using Google to assess for sources per BEFORE and including them (even perfunctorily on the talk page for others to edit into the article) rather than redirecting clearly notable topics is a reasonable expectation.
While a WP:BEFORE search may be a good idea, it isn’t one that there is a consensus to require - and it is one that there shouldn’t be a consensus to require until we place similar requirements, retroactively applying, on the creation of articles.
Wikipedia:Fait accompli is an applicable principle.
If we’re going to apply FAIT to the deletion of articles we need to first - and retroactively - apply it to their creation, otherwise we will have a situation where massive numbers of articles have been created in violation of FAIT but are almost impossible to address.
Further, I’m not convinced this is a FAIT issue; addressing previous FAIT issues is not itself a FAIT violation, even if done at a similar scale and rate.
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All of these are very obviously related to the conflict
User talk:Christsos#Notice of Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard discussion
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I see the editor has been inactive as of a few days prior to this report, so I wanted to ask - did anyone try to explain the ECR's to them beyond placing the ARBPIA notification on their talk page? 22:45, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
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WP:1RR violations and 1RR gaming at Israeli war crimes:
Self reverting per request, as that edit can be considered a revert. Will be putting that material back in later tonight for the same reasons.
I don't know whether 06:18 is a second 1RR violation, but it is gaming of 1RR and seeing 1RR as an allowance, rather than a hard limit - reimplementing a reverted violation 23 hours after initially implementing it and seven hours after reverting it is not aligned with our expectations regarding self-reverting violations.
I requested they re-self-revert; they have refused to do so, and are now arguing that 07:05, 21 April 2024 was not a revert.
There's a few other recent 1RR violations (for example, 02:21, 9 April 2024 and 16:46, 8 April 2024), but no recent gaming as far as I can tell.
The issue with this one, though, is how blatant it is; they didn't wait 24 hours to revert back to their preferred version after self-reverting, they waited just seven - if we don't consider the time the between making the violating revert (07:05) and self-reverting the violation (22:58) it means they reverted back to their preferred version just twelve hours after initially reverting to their preferred version.
If this is permissible, then that means editors who wait 24 hours from their first revert to self revert would be permitted to revert back immediately after self reverting, making the restriction considerably less effective at preventing edit warring and disruption. 22:25, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
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This is misleading. While edit 1 was a revert, edits 2 and 3 were not reverts, per the guidelines in WP:Reverting. The paragraph in all versions contains the proposition that Francesca Albanese said (or stated) that Israel had committed or was committing genocide, providing her exact quote. Edits 2 and 3 didn't change this. They added additional propositions (she submitted a report, the findings/conclusion of the report). The term 'found' here refers to the findings/conclusions contained in her submitted report, which was passingly referenced in the initial version before BilledMammal's later-reverted edit. BilledMammal's edit essentially just made the same explicit proposition twice in two consecutive sentences. Edits 2 and 3 fall into the classification of examples provided in WP:Reverting as 'A normal change, not a reversion' as they add additional propositions without removing any. Boiling down the propositions in the differences, we have:
Edit before BilledMammal edit: She found X. She said X
BilledMammal edit (before the reversion) She said X. She said X.
Edits 2 and 3 (not reversions) She submitted report X, which found/concluded X. She said X.
I'd point out briefly here that the initial version, before and after BilledMammal's reverted edit, did warrant revision, as it referred to the findings/conclusion of a report without explicitly mentioning the report. I now think BilledMammal was right to make that initial edit, and I was wrong to simply revert it, as that original form of the sentence with no additional information would go against MOS:SAID. Edit 1, the revert I did make of BilledMammal's edit, failed to address this issue, but the subsequent edits 2 and 3 addressed this, without information/proposition loss. Edit 3 was a slightly clearer version of edit 2.
After edit 2, in which I first added the additional material, BilledMammal accused me of violating 1RR. I self-reverted when requested to, in the spirit of collaboration, though didn't agree that adding that material constituted a revert, and ultimately added it later in edit 3. All the material is RS-backed, and provides informative and relevant context. If I'm correct that edits 2 and 3 don't constitute reversions, then there's no 1RR violation. If I believed edit 2 or edit 3 constituted a revert, I wouldn't have made either edit.
On my talk page, I attempted multiple times to engage with BilledMammal about the substance of the issue, sought feedback, asking how BilledMammal wanted to write it to add the additional material. BilledMammal repeatedly refused to engage much about the topic, showed no interest in seeking consensus, instead accusing me of a 1RR violation and demanding I self-revert to BilledMammal's version. BilledMammal then threatened arbitration if I didn't comply. I made a good faith attempt to show to BilledMammal why I believe edits 2 and 3 don't constitute reverts, and offered two more suggestions to reach an inclusive consensus. BilledMammal did not respond to these suggestions.
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This page as seen weeks of WP:BATTLEGROUND and possible WP:NAT editing, with controversial content been added with single sources that are most cases primary sources that have clear conflict of intrests and even been labled "pro-rebal". Some other sources with WP:TRIVIALMENTIONS, that makes the content appear WP:OR. Request for more citations per WP:EXCEPTIONAL and WP:CHALLENGE have been refused. Hence I am requesting arbitration to settle this matter by establishing the quality, type and style of citations needed for this artcile.
Following attempts for dispute resolution have been tried:
In response to the comments made here, my stand is that if the admins here feel that a topic band for 30 days or one year to myself or to Petextrodon or both, so be it. However, I request that my band would be limited to Sri Lankan Civil War related topics since my edits on broader Sri Lankan topics have not been hot topics and I have been contributing for over an decade.
In the matter at hand I would request admin intervention to review the content dispute. I have raised this issue in RSN ([1]) and there has been no result. Clearly the article in question does not meet WP standards of WP:NPOV and I request an independent review, mainly regarding the poor sourcing and use of primary sources. In another RSN ([2]) it was mentioned that "As with other advocacy groups… caution is needed. Statements by advocacy groups are WP:PRIMARY sources… certainly reliable for verifying that they take a given stance on an issue, but not necessarily de-facto reliable for the accuracy of the background material used to take that stance." It is vital that this takes place now due to the WP:BATTLE ([3], [4], [5], [6], [7]) that’s is taking place regarding topics associated with the Sri Lankan Civil War, with a clear group of editors including Pharaoh of the Wizards editing on one side of this battle ([8], [9]). I am not surpised to see his support of Petextrodon, an editor who has no content contribution beyound Sri Lankan Civil War topics. Cossde (talk) 14:26, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Petextrodon&diff=prev&oldid=1221697850
@ Bookku . WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:VOTESTACKING on SL Civil War topics were conducted by Petextrodon, Oz346 and Okiloma in general. These have been evendent in pages: List of attacks on civilians attributed to Sri Lankan government forces, Sexual violence against Tamils in Sri Lanka where request for use of secendary sources to meet WP:EXCEPTIONAL has been meat by WP:BATTLE. WP:VOTESTACKING has taken place in RFCs in Talk:Sri Lanka Armed Forces, Talk:Sexual_abuse_by_UN_peacekeepers#Merge_proposal:UN_child_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Haiti, Talk:1977_anti-Tamil_pogrom#RFC:_Report_on_1977_anti-Tamil_riots. Cossde (talk) 12:58, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
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I don't think the issue is truly about the number of citations which is why user Cossde deleted even the content backed by two RS citations, Human Rights Watch and Routledge scholarly publication. More crucially, Cossde may be guilty of vandalism for repeatedly deleting sourced content [1][2], since no Wikipedia rule states that a content without more than one RS should be removed. Also, the user is well-aware that Wikipedia:WikiProject Sri Lanka Reconciliation/Sources classified the UTHR as RS long ago and recently classified NESOHR as a "Qualified source" that can be cited with attribution. As for Frontline (magazine), that's a mainstream news magazine that any reasonable editor can see meets the criteria of RS. As for Uthayan newspaper, I had repeatedly explained to this user in the talk page that it was a registered and award-winning Sri Lankan newspaper yet they weren't satisfied by this explanation and refused to explain why they questioned its reliability.
Cossde has a long history of deleting reliably sourced content [1][2][3] that are critical of the Sri Lankan government and its armed forces. To me this looks like WP:nationalist editing, especially given the blatant double standards this user has shown regarding the use of sources on multiple occasions:
They did not address their blatant double standards despite my repeated requests to do so in the talk page. It would appear from this to any reasonable observer that Cossde is more bothered by the nature of the content than the reliability of the sources. I hope the admins review the reporter's own behavior so the vandalism issue can be sorted and I wouldn't have to open a separate enforcement request against this user. --- Petextrodon (talk) 15:20, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
See no violation this is at best a content dispute which needs to be resolved elsewhere.Further there no CT alerts.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 14:21, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Petextrodon is dedicated contributor in the Sri Lanka area and see no reason for action.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 21:44, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
I don't have detail background but wondering whether really no scope for WP:DDE protocol? and any difficulties to go through WP:RfCs, or RfCs happened but did not mention in above difs? Bookku (talk) 16:44, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
I am asking the administrators at this noticeboard to do something, because there are too many disputes between User:Cossde and User:Petextrodon. I am ready to provide a list of these disputes again, which I already provided to ArbCom in support of identifying Sri Lanka as a contentious topic, and especially the Sri Lankan Civil War, but I know that the administrators here know how to look up the record as well as I do.
User:Petextrodon alleges that User:Cossde's removal of sourced content is vandalism. It is not vandalism, and an editor who has been editing Wikipedia long enough to know what is vandalism should also know what is not vandalism, and POV pushing is not vandalism, although it is often reported as vandalism. However, Petextrodon's complaint should be treated as a counter-complaint of disruptive editing and POV pushing by User:Cossde.
Something needs to be done to curb these disputes. The obvious, but probably wrong, answer is to impose an interaction ban, because these editors do not like each other. The problem is that that will provide a first-mover advantage, and so may actually encourage pre-emptive biased editing. So I recommend that the first step be to topic-ban both of these editors from Sri Lanka for thirty days to give one or another of the administrators time to review the record in detail and determine which editor is more at fault, and extend the topic-ban to one year, or determine that both editors are at fault, and topic-ban them both for one year. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:00, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Hence I am requesting arbitration to settle this matter by establishing the quality, type and style of citations needed for this artcile.That isn't what arbitration enforcement is for. Have you opened an RFC on the sourcing disagreement? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
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