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Please make your request in the appropriate section:
Request name | Motions | Initiated | Votes |
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Persistent WP:IDONTLIKEIT behavior in WP:NCROY discussions | 10 May 2024 | 0/3/0 |
Case name | Closed |
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Conflict of interest management | 13 Apr 2024 |
Mzajac | 7 May 2024 |
Request name | Motions | Case | Posted |
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Amendment request: Conduct in deletion-related editing | none | (orig. case) | 30 April 2024 |
Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles 4 | none | (orig. case) | 8 May 2024 |
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Initiated by AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) at 02:29, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
NOTE: Additional requested moves have taken place where debates on WP:NCROY occurred. The below list encapsulates, in chronological order, the discussions the original poster (OP) thinks are relevant for this case request.
Dear ArbCom,
I apologize in advance if my tone is improper. This is my first request.
At the core of this case request are behavioral concerns regarding how disagreements with WP:NCROY have been expressed. I come to ArbCom to request binding guidance on how to cease the constant user drama over how WP:NCROY should be applied. I also come to ArbCom to request binding guidance for all users on how to react when a personal interpretation of any guideline is rejected by community consensus.
I do not know if the linked discussions count as acceptable “lesser” methods of dispute resolution. However, over many months, at a plethora of venues, from talk pages to RMs and RfCs, bludgeoning, forum shopping, and even breaches of 5P4, among other concerns, have taken over conversations on WP:NCROY and left many users (myself included) exhausted.
I fail to see how any further discussion at WP:AN or WP:ANI can address such frequent and widespread behavior. Moreover, given the persistence in how some users have acted when their opinions are rejected, I likewise do not believe the non-binding guidance of WP:DRN will address these frustrations, which go beyond content disagreements.
Now, I will be honest - I am guilty myself of having let my emotions take over and acted disruptively when arguing for my interpretation of WP:NCROY. Additionally, I have owned up to and apologized for these lapses in judgement: A, B, and C. Furthermore, I have even started RMs to implement the consensus of WP:NCROY despite my personal disagreements: D.
What does it say about the community when RMs go a few months without a formal closure, only to be taken straight to a WP:MR discussion with comments inappropriate for such a venue (as noted in E)? Above all, what does it say about the community when closers of RMs are hesitant to even participate in closing WP:NCROY-related discussions (for fear of starting heated and possibly WP:UNCIVIL discussions): F and G?
Finally, I apologize if I have invited users who do not wish to participate in this case request. The basis of my proposed parties are (as I see) the key participants of two recent MR discussions for Edward IV and David III of Tao. But these are far from all the users involved. And the fact that I am saying this is a major reason that I am filing this case request.
Thank you very much for your consideration. Other users are welcome to elaborate on what I have discussed. I request an extension of my word count to answer inquiries from other users.
Sincerely,
AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 02:29, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
I agree with AndrewPeterT that the current situation around NCROY and its related RMs is exhausting, and I think it's good to see what if anything can be done to improve matters, or at least make things smoother in future RM cycles.
I also agree (in a way) that IDONTLIKEIT or JDLI are a big part of the problem, but not in the way AndrewPeterT seems to suggest. Some participants in recent RMs have developed the bad habit of dismissing any and all opposing arguments as mere JDLI even when they explicitly and repeatedly appeal to policy, guidelines, title criteria, etc. This seems to stem from the belief that there is only a single valid interpretation of policy or application of guidelines: their own. This is tendentious, it shuts down productive discussion, and — if we want to get to a place of more healthy and less contentious debate — it needs to stop. (Q.v. wbm1058's statement.)
If it doesn't, then what we see at NCROY is almost guaranteed to continue:
That last point is worth reiterating, since I've seen repeated suggestions that the RMs must close per NCROY regardless of any and all objections — and worse, that anyone who suggests otherwise is being disruptive. If that's so, then RMs are pointless and should be abolished entirely, and guidelines applied automatically to every article title via undiscussed moves. If it's not, then we need better recognition that there can be multiple valid views regarding how to interpret and apply our policies and guidelines.
I'll also offer a gentle suggestion: if a change to any guideline stirs extremely divided and contentious responses whenever editors seek to apply it, then it might be worth taking that as a sign that the guideline itself should be revisited and improved. As others have rightly noted, more editors have participated in these RMs than in the RfC that changed the guideline, and I don't think their views should count for nothing. ╠╣uw [talk] 11:02, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
Apologies if the following is not entirely coherent and/or cogent. I have not slept well in several days and am not functioning at my best.
I find my thoughts on this matter proceeding in a similar manner to Robert McClenon's. My first reaction upon seeing this late last night was that this is surely premature: this is a content dispute with no egregious conduct problems that I can recall. Many people are very unhappy about a relatively minor titling matter and the repeated litigation surrounding it is becoming a nuisance, but what's new? We're here because we enjoy sinking hundreds and thousands of hours into building a quality encyclopedia in one of the most exposed corners of the Internet; I think that makes all of us at least a little bit more obsessive and neurotic than the average person. Stuff like this is bound to happen (and does, regularly) and generally doesn't matter all that much, relatively speaking.
Having said that: the more I think about it, the more amenable I find myself to ArbCom doing… something. Guerillero is correct in his observation that many people who are aware of the global consensus have been attempting, in many cases explicitly, to oppose its implementation locally ([1][2][3][4][5]) rather than to amend the guideline. This has become quite noxious. Several related RM discussions have been listed at closure requests for months, suggesting that experienced closers are weary of dealing with them. I myself closed two of them, and partly through my own carelessness and partly because of this drama, both were challenged; I have little appetite to involve myself further.
I don't pay much attention to the world of contentious topics, but I understand situations like this to be what they are for. I know that AN can authorize contentious topics and deal with conduct disputes, but I don't anticipate AN being adequate here. AN is good for cases that are sufficiently simple or egregious to gather a critical mass of interest; I think the problems here are too subtle, and that either ArbCom will need to deal with them or the community will need to utterly exhaust itself of this business. The latter is probably actually possible in this case, but I doubt this should be considered preferable. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 22:05, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
My main concern is that controversial discussions are repeatedly being closed by non-admins, contrary to the guidelines. There is no incentive for contributors to try to join the discussion in a constructive way, since absolutely anyone is being allowed to close them against consensus, giving the excuse that "this set of arguments is better than the other" or "I'm only ensuring that the guidelines are followed", as though only one guideline has any weight. Given the huge range of different points raised on both sides during the discussion, I've been quite shocked at how so many people are simply accepting this as a justification. Deb (talk) 13:36, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
I was tagged in by a notice. I'm not quite sure what this is, never having participated in "arbitration" event before, and not sure what is being asked.
It seems evident that there are inconsistencies and incompatibilities between Wikipedia policies and the recently-changed NCROY guideline. So the relative weight given to them in closures of RMs are natural points of contention. Walrasiad (talk) 02:24, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
I probably should be listed as a proposed party, as I initiated both the Nicholas II and Edward IV/Edward V RMs.
I think this filing is premature. There have been many content discussions on this matter, but I have not seen many conduct discussions on this matter. There is a problem, but I don't think we are at the point where this an ArbCom problem. I think a referral to AN—as unappealing as that sounds—is the next thing to try here. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 15:26, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
@Thryduulf: venue is everything. In this case, you can't change guidelines at a specific article's talk page, no matter how many people show up to the discussion. (Of course, editors might raise a reason to IAR specific to that page at a talk page, with the caveat you laid out at Wikipedia:Ignore all rules is for uncommon situations.) If the editors wish to change the guideline, WT:NCROY is the place to do that. Not (e.g.) Talk:Edward V.
If ArbCom does not take this case—which I still believe is the best course of action, even if I completely understand why people would think otherwise—I do think a statement saying (essentially) go to AN and/or WT:NCROY, but if there are further problems go directly to ARC (do not pass go, do not collect $200)
would be helpful. As others have said, there is a problem of a type which historically ends up at ArbCom, but I think the non-ArbCom community should at least try to solve it first. And I think we have a better chance at coming up with a solution if we know ArbCom is the alternative. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 02:24, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
This is a very poorly stated, rambling Request for Arbitration, but there may actually be a valid issue for the ArbCom to answer. My first thought was that maybe the ArbCom ought to warn the filing editor, or ought to consider whether to impose sanctions for frivolous litigation or vexatious litigation. My first thought was mistaken. The filing editor does have a valid question. The question is: Should the naming of articles on royalty be designated as a contentious topic? The filing editor lists a very large number of Requested Moves involving royalty. Maybe most of these requests are tendentious. If so, the contentious topic procedure should be used to topic-ban editors from troublesome requested moves. Alternatively, some other sort of disruptive editing may be interfering with the resolution of these naming discussions.
There is an issue for ArbCom to consider, which is whether the naming of articles on royalty is a contentious topic. ArbCom should open either a case or a discussion. The filing editor has identified a problem that ArbCom should address. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:51, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
User:HouseBlaster raises an interesting point, which is that the community has had (too) many content discussions concerning the naming of articles on royalty, but has not attempted to discuss the conduct issues that cause the content issues to be discussed repetitively. This raises the question of whether ArbCom can impose contentious topic rules before the community tries to deal with conduct. It also raises the related question of whether the community can define a contentious topic that can be dealt with in the same way as an ArbCom-defined contentious topic. I have seen the second question discussed, and do not recall seeing the second question answered. Can the community establish a contentious topic?
If the community can establish that royalty names are a contentious topic, then I mostly agree with HouseBlaster. If so, a two-part dispute can be sent to the community at WP:AN. The first part is that, if anyone wants to contest the closure of the autumn RFC, they can do so at WP:AN, which will probably confirm it. The second part is that the community can deal with the conduct issues. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:11, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
The consensus at the autumn RFC is quite clear and as noted it brings the guideline inline with most other titles of being concise unless disambiguation is needed. Yes I understand the change in the guideline is controversial but given as noted it brings it inline with the general titling policy thus I don't think the change can be said to be controversial enough to ignore it in RMs especially when there isn't an overwhelming majority or !votes against it, see WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. Disclosure; I did not participate in the autumn RFC but I have participated in some of the recent RMs and MRs. I can be added as a party if people want to add me. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
@Primefac: the issue isn't that people are starting a bunch of move requests. The problem is that certain editors are using those move requests (and move reviews) to re-argue a previously decided request for comment. (I think I've participated in some of these discussions, so that might make me involved FWIW). ~~ Jessintime (talk) 19:14, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
I closed the RM noted as anticipating a move review, based on multiple other move reviews being initiated when the close didn't go the way one or other side wanted. It's clear to me that there are conduct issues, I had cause to single out Born2Cycle as the worst but far from only offender in that RM for example. Multiple of the other parties are familiar from other page titling disputes too, which have failed to be resolved at AN(I), so I strongly suspect there will be an arbitration case around the topic of page titles and/or other manual of style issues at some point but I don't think this specific dispute is the right framing for that. The first step to settling the content aspect here should be to assess whether the consensus of commenters in the NCROY RFC matches the consensus of the community at large, and if not what to do about that. Those are not questions for arbcom. Thryduulf (talk) 19:19, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
I believe Guerillero's comment is insightful. Looking at the poor opening statement of the case filer, one might hastily conclude that this is all bark and no bite, but there have been serious underlying issues of poor conduct in this topic area; most notably, as Jessintime notes, relitigation policy discussions for discussions on articles subject to the policy has been extremely common. If ArbCom choose to decline this case as premature, I would be shocked if it didn't make its way back after months of wasting time with noticeboards and talk pages and deletion/move/administrative action reviews. If there is a chance we will end with one of those contentious topics whose necessity will be bewildering in a decade's time, better now than in a year's time. I would prefer not to drive away valuable editors because of an increasingly toxic part of the project. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:30, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
I'm in general agreement with Thryduulf. Opening a case on this topic seems premature. The current implementation of WP:NCROY is unfortunately too open to personal interpretation and too vague to implement. Expecting everyone to come to the same exact conclusions with such an unclear guideline is unrealistic. It also seems like it may be unrepresentative of community consensus given the results in so many RMs. Designating the area as a contentious topic would not solve those fundamental problems. What is needed is a broader and more rigorous attempt to find and define consensus. Enforcing contentious topics procedures for this topic area would be exceedingly difficult given the current state of consensus and the guideline. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 01:56, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
In a 2012 case, "Article titles and capitalisation", the Arbitration Committee warned Born2cycle that his contributions to discussion must reflect a better receptiveness to compromise and a higher tolerance for the views of other editors.
Born2cycle (block log) was indefinitely blocked for disruptive editing in March 2018 per this. I unblocked him after nearly 3 months had passed: a nearly 3-month first block is of sufficient duration, and is well beyond the norm for a first block for tendentious editing
, and have been generally pleased at his improved behavior since, but am concerned that he is relapsing. HERE, on February 14, I see another editor expressing concern about tendentious comments in an RM discussion. In the currently longest running RM, open a whopping 116 days and counting, I see two "Notes to closer", the second one pointing to two other discussions, one of which was endorsed, and one of which was overturned – both in favor of the naming convention that B2C supports. I read this as a not-too-subtle threat that any close that doesn't go his way will be taken to move review. A quick glance at that discussion, where the request has plenty of opposition, gives me the initial impression that it should close as no consensus, which would result in the page title remaining the same. But any potential closing administrator should realize that the next step will be another tendentious discussion at "move review", where the closing admin risks the embarrassment of watching their close get overturned. – wbm1058 (talk) 02:43, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
I don't think this warrants a case yet, in particular the proposer has failed to show a case where the community has repeatedly failed to arrive at a conclusion w.r.t. the conduct of the users involved. Generally agree with what @Thryduulf: said. --qedk (t 愛 c) 13:36, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
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Initiated by Cunard at 05:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Previous discussions
This was previously discussed in an amendment request closed on 20 April 2024 and on Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests.
Background
Before the 2 August 2022 deletion topic ban, TenPoundHammer nominated numerous articles for proposed deletion and articles for deletion. He also redirected numerous articles in 2022. This link shows the last 500 redirects he did before the 2 August 2022 topic ban. If you search for the text "Tags: New redirect Reverted" on the page, there are 189 results. At least 189 of the redirects he did between April 2022 and July 2022 were reverted.
TenPoundHammer resumed the actions that led me to create Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1101#TenPoundHammer: prods and AfDs, which was closed as "This matter has been escalated to the arbitration committee, which has opened a full case at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing on this and other related matters" and is cited as "June 2022 ANI" in this finding of fact.
Evidence
I started a talk page discussion with TenPoundHammer on 2 March 2024 about TenPoundHammer's blanking and redirecting of Monkey-ed Movies (link), Skating's Next Star (link), Monkey Life (link), 2 Minute Drill (game show) (link), and Monsters We Met (link) for lacking sources. I was able to find sources for these articles so reverted the redirects and added the sources. I asked TenPoundHammer to stop blanking and redirecting articles as it was leading to notable topics no longer having articles.
TenPoundHammer continued to redirect articles on notable topics. Between 11 March 2024 and 16 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected 18 articles. Of those 18 articles, 14 were about television series (a topic I focus on): 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14. After spending many hours searching for sources, I reverted all 14 redirects and added sources to all 14 articles. For several of the topics (such as Queer Eye for the Straight Girl and Dice: Undisputed), sources could be easily found with a Google search.
Between 20 March 2024 and 21 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected three book articles (another topic I focus on): 1, 2, and 3. I reverted the three redirects and added book reviews.
Between 20 March 2024 and 21 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected 33 articles. Almost all of those redirects are in the music topic area which I do not focus on. I am concerned about the large number of redirects of topics that could be notable.
On 12 April 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected the television show Las Vegas Garden of Love with the edit summary "unsourced since 2010, time to lose it". I found sources for the article and reverted the redirect. I found two of the sources (The New York Times and Variety) on the first page of a Google search for "Las Vegas Garden of Love ABC". TenPoundHammer previously prodded this same article in May 2022, and another editor contested that prodding ("contest PROD, nom nominated 200 articles in a single day so it's impossible a BEFORE was done for each").
Analysis
Wikipedia:Fait accompli is an applicable principle. Reviewing this volume of redirects consumes substantial editor time. The redirects are leading to numerous notable topics no longer having articles. The redirects prevent the topics from undergoing community review at AfD, which TenPoundHammer is topic banned from.
Blank-and-redirects get significantly less attention than prods and AfDs. Television-related prods and AfDs are listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Television and Wikipedia:WikiProject Television/Article alerts. But blank-and-redirects are not listed anywhere.
It is unclear to me whether the existing topic ban includes proposing articles for deletion. I recommend that the topic ban be expanded to prohibit both proposing articles for deletion and blanking and redirecting pages since there is previous disruptive editing in both areas where he has prodded or redirected a large number of articles about notable topics. This remedy does something similar for a different editor in the same arbitration case.
Here are quotes from three arbitrators about the topic ban in the 2022 proposed decision regarding the redirects and and proposed deletion:
"... Missing PROD was not intentional on my part but that also can be added." (link)
Cunard (talk) 05:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
I assumed I was already topic-banned from PRODding articles, so I don't know why that was brought up. (Similarly, I don't know what the ruling is on deprodding but it's historically not been an issue for me, and I personally don't think it would be fair to deny me a chance to say "hey, wait, I can fix this".) Speed has been an issue, as has blunt edit summaries when I redirect something. Lately when I feel there is little to no content to merge, I try to spell out my WP:BEFORE steps in the edit summary when I redirect. I also generally don't unlink the page, to save the hassle if someone like Cunard comes along to revert my redirect and dump in some sources. One reason I don't try to initiate merger discussion is because no matter how hard I try, no one ever seems to respond. Witness Talk:Regis_Philbin#Proposed_merge_of_Joy_Philbin_into_Regis_Philbin, which opened two months ago and has had several reminders, but not a single person has lifted a finger. How long is that discussion going to gather dust? "There is no deadline" doesn't mean "do nothing and hope the problem somehow fixes itself". If I am to be topic-banned from WP:BLARing, then how can I get some action going in merger discussions? Since again, every fucking time I try, nobody acts like I'm even there -- but then two seconds after I give in and finally merge/redirect the damn thing, someone swoops in to revert me. I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 23:29, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
I am Involved here. TPH and I came up together on this project and occasionally ran into one another on country talk pages although it has been some time since we substantively interacted. I also have the utmost respect for Cunard's research at AfD in that they not only say "sources exist" but find and annotate them for participants to assess. This is especially helpful personally in east Asian language sourcing. That said, Cunard's case here is strong. TPH sees it as their duty to clean up the project, but I don't think their strong feelings are backed by our policies, nor is there a pressing need to remove this content. The project will not collapse and these are mostly not BLPs. If they are, someone else can handle it. I believe TPH's topic ban should be expanded to include BLAR which is a form of deletion. I have no strong feelings on PROD personally. Star Mississippi 01:17, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Suggest:
If editors cannot agree, the content issues should be discussed at the relevant talk page, and other methods of dispute resolution should be used, such as restoring the article and nominating the article for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion.Since TPH is topic banned from AfD, nominating contested BLARs for deletion is off the table. Jclemens (talk) 20:31, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
TPH has been here long enough that using Google to assess for sources per BEFORE and including them (even perfunctorily on the talk page for others to edit into the article) rather than redirecting clearly notable topics is a reasonable expectation.
While a WP:BEFORE search may be a good idea, it isn’t one that there is a consensus to require - and it is one that there shouldn’t be a consensus to require until we place similar requirements, retroactively applying, on the creation of articles.
Wikipedia:Fait accompli is an applicable principle.
If we’re going to apply FAIT to the deletion of articles we need to first - and retroactively - apply it to their creation, otherwise we will have a situation where massive numbers of articles have been created in violation of FAIT but are almost impossible to address.
Further, I’m not convinced this is a FAIT issue; addressing previous FAIT issues is not itself a FAIT violation, even if done at a similar scale and rate.
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
is not required but considered good practice when the main concern is lack of notability or sources.but for this editor, with this past, the lack of BEFORE when some high quality sourcing was available strikes me as an issue. Barkeep49 (talk) 04:02, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
Initiated by ScottishFinnishRadish at 12:12, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Here's a simple one. The 1RR general sanction says Each editor is limited to one revert per page per 24 hours on any edits made to content within the area of conflict.
Does content include talk page messages, RFC statements, user talk messages, or is it confined to actual in-article content? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:12, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
issues here could probably be dealt with fine elsewhere so I just note it.Where? My talk page, or WP:AE which is just me and Seraphimblade? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:16, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
Mainly out of curiosity, would it apply to hidden text within the article? I’ve always assumed it would, but I can see an argument now that it wouldn’t. BilledMammal (talk) 14:47, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
The incident referenced by ScottishFinnishRadish, which coincidentally involves BilledMammal is not the first times BilledMammal has been involved in a 1RR debate. Actually two weeks ago (23 April 2024), BilledMammal made two separate reversions ([6] & [7]) six minute apart. When the editor who was reverted brought this up on BilledMammal’s talk page as a violation of 1RR, BilledMammal directly stated it was “not a violation”. I stalk BilledMammal’s talk page, so I provided my own thoughts on it and I echoed what ScottishFinnishRadish said: One revert per page unless it is direct vandalism that is clear. Further on this incident & my full TPS comment at User talk:BilledMammal#WP:1RR at Israel–Hamas war. Full clarification on whether that was a true violation of 1RR would also be helpful, as BilledMammal did not self-revert and brushed the incident off as not being a violation. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 14:14, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
I don't think it really matters one way or the other, as both the articles and the talk pages in this subject are a disaster area, a kind of administrator-free zone in which incivility is rampant and WP:BATTLEFIELD conduct is normal. 1RR or 3RR won't make any difference on the talk pages. I think the substance of editor behavior, such as involved editors shutting down RfCs as BilledMammal complained about on SFR's talk page, is far more consequential. We're really here to discuss a side issue of limited importance. Coretheapple (talk) 15:39, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
Barkeep49 True, the talk pages are a disaster area as I said, and repetition is part of the problem. Editors' time was wasted a couple of months ago in a lengthy, immense move discussion on Israel-Hamas war that commenced within days of a previous one was concluded. So yes, that kind of thing happens and it is just part of a general free-for-all atmosphere on these talk pages that includes repetition and also includes RfCs being closed by involved editors. One has to look at the whole situation, which includes a lack of administrator oversight. and incivility being treated as a suggestion and not as a policy violation. I view incivility as a kind of "broken windows policing" kind of situation. Once that breaks down, things get completely out of hand. Coretheapple (talk) 16:11, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
Perhaps we should not stray too far from the principal issue here, do the restrictions apply only to article content, I am satisfied that question has been addressed, remaining issues can be dealt with elsewhere. Selfstudier (talk) 16:15, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
Our policies are straightforward: This [Contentious topic] procedure applies to edits and pages in all namespaces. When considering whether edits fall within the scope of a contentious topic, administrators should be guided by the principles outlined in the topic ban policy.
(annotation b at WP:CTOP). Thus, whenever 1RR is instituted on a page within the CT framework, it applies to all the associated namespaces as well as to subpages and archives. — kashmīrī TALK 17:11, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
@M.Bitton, thanks for the quote from policy. I hope arbs will take a closer look at the policy wording and intent, and won't try to reinvent them here. — kashmīrī TALK 00:15, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
I always assumed that it does. While The 1RR general sanction says Each editor is limited to one revert per page per 24 hours on any edits made to content within the area of conflict
, the "area of conflict" is clearly defined in WP:PIA as edits relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict, to pages and discussions in all namespaces with the exception of userspace ("related content")
. M.Bitton (talk) 23:34, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
specific to article content in the broad sense. I would add as a further example of content, without being a page edit, would be moving as the name of the article is clearly a kind of content (and is listed in the article history accordingly, rather than just in a log). Barkeep49 (talk) 14:43, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
could probably be dealt with fine elsewhereis, I would say AE. One addendum/caveat to this comment: the more recent activity across all AE's (roughly the last 2 weeks) has been skewed towards those two. There could be any number of reasons why that is without suggesting trouble to me. So if that were to continue through the end of May that would be a different problem to look at than saying "AE doesn't have capacity to handle PIA issues" Barkeep49 (talk) 16:22, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
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Christsos is formally warned to adhere to the 30/500 restrictions in the ARBPIA area, and that further violations will result in sanction. Seraphimblade Talk to me 21:41, 8 May 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Christsos[edit]
All of these are very obviously related to the conflict
User talk:Christsos#Notice of Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard discussion
Discussion concerning Christsos[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Christsos[edit]Statement by BilledMammal[edit]I see the editor has been inactive as of a few days prior to this report, so I wanted to ask - did anyone try to explain the ECR's to them beyond placing the ARBPIA notification on their talk page? 22:45, 2 May 2024 (UTC) Result concerning Christsos[edit]
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Entropyandvodka is given a logged warning to adhere to 1RR, as clarified here, and that further edit warring or 1RR violations will result in sanctions. Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:14, 8 May 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Entropyandvodka[edit]
WP:1RR violations and 1RR gaming at Israeli war crimes:
I don't know whether 06:18 is a second 1RR violation, but it is gaming of 1RR and seeing 1RR as an allowance, rather than a hard limit - reimplementing a reverted violation 23 hours after initially implementing it and seven hours after reverting it is not aligned with our expectations regarding self-reverting violations. I requested they re-self-revert; they have refused to do so, and are now arguing that 07:05, 21 April 2024 was not a revert.
There's a few other recent 1RR violations (for example, 02:21, 9 April 2024 and 16:46, 8 April 2024), but no recent gaming as far as I can tell. The issue with this one, though, is how blatant it is; they didn't wait 24 hours to revert back to their preferred version after self-reverting, they waited just seven - if we don't consider the time the between making the violating revert (07:05) and self-reverting the violation (22:58) it means they reverted back to their preferred version just twelve hours after initially reverting to their preferred version. If this is permissible, then that means editors who wait 24 hours from their first revert to self revert would be permitted to revert back immediately after self reverting, making the restriction considerably less effective at preventing edit warring and disruption. 22:25, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Entropyandvodka[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Entropyandvodka[edit]This is misleading. While edit 1 was a revert, edits 2 and 3 were not reverts, per the guidelines in WP:Reverting. The paragraph in all versions contains the proposition that Francesca Albanese said (or stated) that Israel had committed or was committing genocide, providing her exact quote. Edits 2 and 3 didn't change this. They added additional propositions (she submitted a report, the findings/conclusion of the report). The term 'found' here refers to the findings/conclusions contained in her submitted report, which was passingly referenced in the initial version before BilledMammal's later-reverted edit. BilledMammal's edit essentially just made the same explicit proposition twice in two consecutive sentences. Edits 2 and 3 fall into the classification of examples provided in WP:Reverting as 'A normal change, not a reversion' as they add additional propositions without removing any. Boiling down the propositions in the differences, we have: Edit before BilledMammal edit: She found X. She said X BilledMammal edit (before the reversion) She said X. She said X. Edits 2 and 3 (not reversions) She submitted report X, which found/concluded X. She said X. I'd point out briefly here that the initial version, before and after BilledMammal's reverted edit, did warrant revision, as it referred to the findings/conclusion of a report without explicitly mentioning the report. I now think BilledMammal was right to make that initial edit, and I was wrong to simply revert it, as that original form of the sentence with no additional information would go against MOS:SAID. Edit 1, the revert I did make of BilledMammal's edit, failed to address this issue, but the subsequent edits 2 and 3 addressed this, without information/proposition loss. Edit 3 was a slightly clearer version of edit 2. After edit 2, in which I first added the additional material, BilledMammal accused me of violating 1RR. I self-reverted when requested to, in the spirit of collaboration, though didn't agree that adding that material constituted a revert, and ultimately added it later in edit 3. All the material is RS-backed, and provides informative and relevant context. If I'm correct that edits 2 and 3 don't constitute reversions, then there's no 1RR violation. If I believed edit 2 or edit 3 constituted a revert, I wouldn't have made either edit. On my talk page, I attempted multiple times to engage with BilledMammal about the substance of the issue, sought feedback, asking how BilledMammal wanted to write it to add the additional material. BilledMammal repeatedly refused to engage much about the topic, showed no interest in seeking consensus, instead accusing me of a 1RR violation and demanding I self-revert to BilledMammal's version. BilledMammal then threatened arbitration if I didn't comply. I made a good faith attempt to show to BilledMammal why I believe edits 2 and 3 don't constitute reverts, and offered two more suggestions to reach an inclusive consensus. BilledMammal did not respond to these suggestions.
Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning Entropyandvodka[edit]
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This page as seen weeks of WP:BATTLEGROUND and possible WP:NAT editing, with controversial content been added with single sources that are most cases primary sources that have clear conflict of intrests and even been labled "pro-rebal". Some other sources with WP:TRIVIALMENTIONS, that makes the content appear WP:OR. Request for more citations per WP:EXCEPTIONAL and WP:CHALLENGE have been refused. Hence I am requesting arbitration to settle this matter by establishing the quality, type and style of citations needed for this artcile.
Following attempts for dispute resolution have been tried:
In response to the comments made here, my stand is that if the admins here feel that a topic band for 30 days or one year to myself or to Petextrodon or both, so be it. However, I request that my band would be limited to Sri Lankan Civil War related topics since my edits on broader Sri Lankan topics have not been hot topics and I have been contributing for over an decade.
In the matter at hand I would request admin intervention to review the content dispute. I have raised this issue in RSN ([8]) and there has been no result. Clearly the article in question does not meet WP standards of WP:NPOV and I request an independent review, mainly regarding the poor sourcing and use of primary sources. In another RSN ([9]) it was mentioned that "As with other advocacy groups… caution is needed. Statements by advocacy groups are WP:PRIMARY sources… certainly reliable for verifying that they take a given stance on an issue, but not necessarily de-facto reliable for the accuracy of the background material used to take that stance." It is vital that this takes place now due to the WP:BATTLE ([10], [11], [12], [13], [14]) that’s is taking place regarding topics associated with the Sri Lankan Civil War, with a clear group of editors including Pharaoh of the Wizards editing on one side of this battle ([15], [16]). I am not surpised to see his support of Petextrodon, an editor who has no content contribution beyound Sri Lankan Civil War topics. Cossde (talk) 14:26, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Petextrodon&diff=prev&oldid=1221697850
@ Bookku . WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:VOTESTACKING on SL Civil War topics were conducted by Petextrodon, Oz346 and Okiloma in general. These have been evendent in pages: List of attacks on civilians attributed to Sri Lankan government forces, Sexual violence against Tamils in Sri Lanka where request for use of secendary sources to meet WP:EXCEPTIONAL has been meat by WP:BATTLE. WP:VOTESTACKING has taken place in RFCs in Talk:Sri Lanka Armed Forces, Talk:Sexual_abuse_by_UN_peacekeepers#Merge_proposal:UN_child_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Haiti, Talk:1977_anti-Tamil_pogrom#RFC:_Report_on_1977_anti-Tamil_riots. Cossde (talk) 12:58, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
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I don't think the issue is truly about the number of citations which is why user Cossde deleted even the content backed by two RS citations, Human Rights Watch and Routledge scholarly publication. More crucially, Cossde may be guilty of vandalism for repeatedly deleting sourced content [1][2], since no Wikipedia rule states that a content without more than one RS should be removed. Also, the user is well-aware that Wikipedia:WikiProject Sri Lanka Reconciliation/Sources classified the UTHR as RS long ago and recently classified NESOHR as a "Qualified source" that can be cited with attribution. As for Frontline (magazine), that's a mainstream news magazine that any reasonable editor can see meets the criteria of RS. As for Uthayan newspaper, I had repeatedly explained to this user in the talk page that it was a registered and award-winning Sri Lankan newspaper yet they weren't satisfied by this explanation and refused to explain why they questioned its reliability.
Cossde has a long history of deleting reliably sourced content [1][2][3] that are critical of the Sri Lankan government and its armed forces. To me this looks like WP:nationalist editing, especially given the blatant double standards this user has shown regarding the use of sources on multiple occasions:
They did not address their blatant double standards despite my repeated requests to do so in the talk page. It would appear from this to any reasonable observer that Cossde is more bothered by the nature of the content than the reliability of the sources. I hope the admins review the reporter's own behavior so the vandalism issue can be sorted and I wouldn't have to open a separate enforcement request against this user. --- Petextrodon (talk) 15:20, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
See no violation this is at best a content dispute which needs to be resolved elsewhere.Further there no CT alerts.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 14:21, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Petextrodon is dedicated contributor in the Sri Lanka area and see no reason for action.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 21:44, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Collapsing since Cossde answered the query
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I don't have detail background but wondering whether really no scope for WP:DDE protocol? and any difficulties to go through WP:RfCs, or RfCs happened but did not mention in above difs? Bookku (talk) 16:44, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
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I am asking the administrators at this noticeboard to do something, because there are too many disputes between User:Cossde and User:Petextrodon. I am ready to provide a list of these disputes again, which I already provided to ArbCom in support of identifying Sri Lanka as a contentious topic, and especially the Sri Lankan Civil War, but I know that the administrators here know how to look up the record as well as I do.
User:Petextrodon alleges that User:Cossde's removal of sourced content is vandalism. It is not vandalism, and an editor who has been editing Wikipedia long enough to know what is vandalism should also know what is not vandalism, and POV pushing is not vandalism, although it is often reported as vandalism. However, Petextrodon's complaint should be treated as a counter-complaint of disruptive editing and POV pushing by User:Cossde.
Something needs to be done to curb these disputes. The obvious, but probably wrong, answer is to impose an interaction ban, because these editors do not like each other. The problem is that that will provide a first-mover advantage, and so may actually encourage pre-emptive biased editing. So I recommend that the first step be to topic-ban both of these editors from Sri Lanka for thirty days to give one or another of the administrators time to review the record in detail and determine which editor is more at fault, and extend the topic-ban to one year, or determine that both editors are at fault, and topic-ban them both for one year. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:00, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Hence I am requesting arbitration to settle this matter by establishing the quality, type and style of citations needed for this artcile.That isn't what arbitration enforcement is for. Have you opened an RFC on the sourcing disagreement? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
76.53.254.138 blocked 2 weeks by ScottishFinnishRadish. Seraphimblade Talk to me 23:33, 8 May 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning 76.53.254.138[edit]
User initially began editing as an IP in the ARBPIA area some time ago, sometimes disruptively: After being issued the CTOP warning on May 1 (linked below), and despite being specifically warned of the ECR restriction, they've resumed editing within the ARBPIA topic area, primarily in the current events portal:
The IP in question has exhibited other generally disruptive behaviors over the past several months, both within and outside the ARBPIA area:
Many of their other edits exhibit a strong POV that they've attempted to push through via some of the aforementioned slow-motion edit wars. Overall, they've seemingly disregarded the CTOP warning issued to continue editing in an area they're not allowed to, and have a history of disruptive editing otherwise. They've avoided a block up to this point. I apologize if this should've gone to WP:ANI due to it being an IP, but I figured AE was the correct location given the bulk of the edits being in an arb-restricted area. The Kip 02:54, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
Discussion concerning 76.53.254.138[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by 76.53.254.138[edit]Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning 76.53.254.138[edit]
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
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The use has began a enagenging in WP:Disruptive editing and WP:BATTLE in the article Tamil genocide. There is an active dissucssion going on in the talk page, however Oz346 has engaged in reverting edits made by myself and another in the lead over a period of hours today without engagaging in the talk page. However he has made no objection to the changes made by Petextrodon, who has completly changed the lead without disscusing in the talk page nore as Oz346 has personaly made changes without disscussing it in the talk page himself. Cossde (talk) 12:42, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
@ScottishFinnishRadish & @Seraphimblade, it was not my intention to weaponizing AE, however if you feel my actions are such, feel free to sanction me as you see fit, as I am ready to accept responsibility for my actions.
My intentions were to bring to attention the WP:NAT based WP:POV Pushing and WP:Disruptive editing that has been conducted by these to editors on topics related to the Sri Lankan Civil War supported by a broader cohort of sympathetic supporters, who seem to come to their aid (even in this AE). It is my opinion that these two editors have been attempting to weaponizing WP as part of a broader campaign.
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
I made no objections to the changes made by Petextrodon, because they replaced non-peer reviewed sources with several reliable scholarly sources, which any neutral observer can see [33] Does user Cossde dispute this? Does he prefer the previous lede, which he himself has been questioning? [34] I have justified my reverts and have not broken any edit war rules, and do not intend to go anywhere near WP:3RR in respect of the contentious topics designation.
Furthermore, it is evident that Cossde did not even bother to read the JDS article, in his edit which I reverted [35] , where he incorrectly claims that the author Ramanan Veerasingham made genocide accusations. Ramanan was merely reporting on the findings of the Permanent Peoples' Tribunal: http://www.jdslanka.org/index.php/news-features/human-rights/426-sri-lanka-guilty-of-genocide-against-tamils-with-uk-us-complicity-ppt-rules
Regarding point 3 and 4. I reverted to the status quo which had existed for months, and was the result of a long discussion a few years ago (which resulted in the various different death toll estimates being included). One of the sources that the user is questioning, ITJP was regarded as a reliable source on the RSN [36]. How can citing that with explicit attribution be regarded as POV pushing?
In addition, Cossde's point 5, goes against the consensus established at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Sri_Lanka_Reconciliation/Sources#List_of_sources, which explicitly states that these sources can be cited in Wikipedia. Yet he refuses to respect the admin led verdicts made there. This is not in keeping with Wikipedia consensus building policies. And now he accuses me of disruptive editing for following the projects' own guidance!
In addition, I believe that user Cossde has thus far escaped sanctioning because every time he gets reported, he submerges the discussions with reams and reams of text not directly related to the issues at hand. This prevents admins from properly assessing the actual individual issues (Which is understandable, as it would require a large time effort to sift through all the accusations and counter accusations, many of which are baseless [37], and inappropriately cite wikipedia policies). My humble request is to focus on the issues at hand and not get sidetracked. Thank you. Oz346 (talk) 12:49, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
See no violation this is at best a content dispute which needs to be resolved elsewhere.Oz346 is dedicated contributor in the Sri Lanka area and see no reason for action.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 22:10, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
I am glad the admins are seeing this enforcement request and the request against Petextrodon for what they are: an editor involved in a content dispute trying to remove from the picture editors with opposing views so that they can impose their own POV on the articles under dispute.
Cossde has been at war with Oz346 for a year now. Their war has dragged in Petextrodon and number of other editors and impacted on numerous articles and noticeboards. The common denominator in all the disputes is Cossde. The alphabetti spaghetti of accusations that Cossde has made against Oz346 and Petextrodon can also be leveled against Cossde.
If admins are minded to take any action in either of the requests, they need to go through Cossde's contributions over the last year. They also need to look at the enforcement taken against Cossde throughout their time on Wikipedia. Five blocks for edit warring and sock puppetry. There's a 12 year gap between the first and last blocks. This clearly shows that they are incapable of changing their behavior.
As Robert McClenon stated in the first enforcement request, an interaction ban would provide a first-mover advantage, and so may actually encourage pre-emptive biased editing. Cossde has done exactly that with the enforcement requests: minutes before submitting the first request, Cossde removed 8MB on sourced content from an article under dispute where they was ongoing discussion on the talk page. I have no doubt that Cossde would abuse an interaction ban.--Obi2canibe (talk) 19:47, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
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M.Bitton (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
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There has been a long running dispute at Israel-Hamas war over the contents of the third paragraph of the lede; following multiple reverts and at least two discussions that failed to resolve the issue or prevent further reverts (one, two) I opened an RfC. A few hours later, after three editors, including myself, had !voted in the RfC, Makeandtoss closed it. They had previously been involved in this specific dispute, both in the article (example) and in the discussions linked above. This close also violated WP:TPO, as it involved striking the contributions of other editors without falling under the exceptions permitted by that policy.
I reverted this out of process close, but a few hours later M.Bitton reclosed it. M.Bitton wasn't involved in the immediate dispute, but has been involved with the article, and has expressed strong opinions in past RfC's on related content (example).
This was a topic that was ripe for dispute resolution, with an RfC that had no issues sufficient to justify a premature close. Even if Makeandtoss and M.Bitton weren't involved it would have been a disruptive close, but it is particularly so because they were - by closing it early they have locked in a status quo that Makeandtoss explicitly favors and M.Bitton implicitly favors.
This was discussed previously at ScottishFinnishRadish's talk page, and then further at ARCA, where Barkeep49 said they take a dim view of editors preventing this RfC
, and recommended bringing it here.
I also requested that M.Bitton revert their close; they declined to do so.
Makeandtoss:
disingenuous edit summaries, edit warring, and treating Wikipedia as a battleground
M.Bitton:
Makeandtoss:
M.Bitton
Makeandtoss:
M.Bitton:
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
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As evidenced by BilledMammal's own links above, there was no prior in-depth discussion on each of the four points, nor was there any attempt at conflict resolution that are outlined in WP:RFCBEFORE, which considers RFC a last option due to its time-consuming nature.
What I did was simply strike through the RFC, an action that was easily reverted, and I stopped and did not take it further. It would be disingenuous to claim that I had closed it, an irreversible action. Nevertheless, I will ensure to ask an uninvolved administrator to do this in upcoming incidents, which is indeed a better course of action.
That aside, this seems like an attempt to deflect from BilledMammal's own editing behavior, as they created the RFC in non-neutral phrasing without signing it, and then went ahead to vote with a signature, which creates a misleading first impression. Not to mention BilledMammal's edit warring by reverting other editors four times within the course of two hours relating to this incident: [38], [39], [40], [41].
I sincerely hope to see the day when editors are more interested in constructively contributing to Wikipedia than taking editors they disagree with to AE every time something happens. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:36, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
I already explained the close when asked by ScottishFinnishRadish, so I won't repeat it here. I also wasn't involved in any of the discussions that led to RfC. Frankly, this report raises more questions than answers: if BilledMammal was really interested in SFR's advice, then why did they ignore it and why did they ignore the question that SFR asked them (about how to best formulate the RFC)? Someone who's starting a RfC for the benefit of the project would have no issue with what SFR suggested (working with others), but I guess that wasn't what they were after. Approaching me four days later with an ultimatum doesn't strike me as very constructive, especially considering the fact that I chose not to report them for violating 1RR multiples times. Bringing it to AE after raising it with SFR is just plain forum shopping. M.Bitton (talk) 11:11, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
I dont think it was a good idea to shut down the RFC. But on the process, if a user is blocked from a page for edit-warring, are they allowed to pursue dispute resolution related to that page while blocked? Or is that not similar to an editor violating a topic ban by making a report about the topic? nableezy - 13:01, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
My sole contribution to the RFC was to add the comment "+1. Not signed either." to Makeandtoss rejection of it, the RFCbefore being unspecified as well as a transparent attempt to revisit old arguments that had not produced the desired outcome from the openers perspective, awkwardly lumped together in a single RFC. I sympathize with the frustration that led to its untimely closure and frankly think that complainant should devote some effort to figuring out ways to spend less time at this board. Selfstudier (talk) 13:15, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Seems it can't be bothWell, it can, I speak as someone familiar with the article and its history, what I mean is that those prior discussions were nowhere apparent at the RFC or even on the talk page, it being usual to specify an RFCbefore detailing them. I can try to locate the multiplicity of them in the talk page archives if desired, I assume OP knows where they are? Selfstudier (talk) 14:06, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
does it being in an archive mean it no longer counts as prior discussion?That's the point, it is valid and that's why editors taking part in an RFC need to know about those discussions, generally I would link them as part of an RFC(before) Not all editors are aware of prior discussions of which there may have been several.Selfstudier (talk) 15:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Would a better, less inflammatory way to handle this have been pointing out those earlier discussions in the RFC discussion or bringing up that you believe they should be linked on BMs talk page rather than closing the RM or modifying the RFC statement?From where I'm sitting, which is quite frequently on the opposite side of the table from complainant, that thought is one step removed from what I see as the actual source of the problem, namely the opening of that particular RFC in that particular way in the first instance, then persisting with it when three editors came out strongly against the process. I would not personally have closed out the RFC but I don't disagree with it either, I think complainant should have done so themselves and we wouldn't be here, not for this at any rate. Selfstudier (talk) 18:22, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
While BM is technically correct that an RfC does not have to be signed, when one of the principle disputants on a topic starts an RfC with their own preferences highlighted it is at least a very bad look if they refuse to have their name on it. And I mean "refuse", since BM twice deleted a signature that was added using {{unsigned}}. If there is a positive explanation for that I didn't manage to think of it. Zerotalk 13:39, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Just saying...WP:Signatures says "Typing five tildes will convert to a date stamp with the current date and time, without adding your signature". So, while it is true that five tildes are permitted in an RfC, it is arguable whether that counts as a signature for the purposes of TPO. Zerotalk 01:24, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
In this instance I am uninvolved in the RfC (and am largely uninvolved in ARBPIA). I wanted to draw attention to BilledMammal's using their own !vote in their own RfC as evidence that it should remain open, which I take to be a rather peculiar argument. Of the other two !votes, one largely resisted the way the RfC was framed, while the other did accept the framing but only answered two of the four RfC questions.
So to me, BM's argument amounts to an assertion that the way it is framed makes sense to them (though others evidently disagree) and that they have voted in it therefore it must stay open. To insist on this, in spite of the lack of RFCBEFORE and quite evident flaws in the RfC's construction, strikes me as an attempted deployment of bureaucratic proceduralism unworthy of BM or of enwiki in general.
To then "seek justice against one's enemies" (Plato, not a wikipedian) in this forum, after having been banned temporarily from the Talk page in question, seems to me like a failure of judgement given the overwhelming lack of support for BM's framing of the RfC in the first place. The only likely outcome of that RfC, given the responses to it on Talk and on SFR's Talk, was a "malformed RfC" outcome, and I don't see how devoting photons and editors' time to hashing out that outcome would have served anything but BURO. Newimpartial (talk) 14:09, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
I don't have a view on this particular situation, but for context, I thought it would be useful to flag up that I have also experienced Makeandtoss shutting down an RfC after others have commented (see here). Number 57 17:13, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
Closing an RfP this way seems rather disruptive (per WP:RFC, An RfC should last until enough comment has been received that consensus is reached, or until it is apparent that it won't be
). Usually users unhappy with an RfC would !vote Bad RfC and explain their reasoning. Why couldn't it have been done in this case? Alaexis¿question? 21:10, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
It was a complex RFC from the get-go, and seemingly not prompted by sufficiently rigorous prior discussion so as to actually warrant such a complicated RFC (the only linked discussions are a couple that appear to have simply petered out). RFCs are by nature time consuming for the community, and can also hamstring routine discussion and editing but putting a freeze on any topic covered by the RFC until complete. It is not in the project's interest to have a proliferation of badly scripted, overly complex RFCs floating around, and closing such examples down is quite sensible from a WP:NOTBURO perspective. There aren't many other avenues open for nipping bad RFCs in the bud. If everyone just attends and votes "bad RFC" then that's time-consuming participation. Alternatively, editors could try to petition the admin noticeboard for an admin to strictly enforce WP:RFCBEFORE, but if this is a routine action, it's not one that I've observed, even though WP:RFCBEFORE is in principle quite strict and, one might think, enforceable. This close was a no-nonsense attempt to strictly adhere to WP:RFCBEFORE, and perhaps recourse to the admin board would have been a better option, but the intentions appear reasonable. It feels like the best way to deal with an RFC that fails WP:RFCBEFORE is actually a bit of a grey area, and one that perhaps needs better clearing up. Iskandar323 (talk) 02:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
there was no prior in-depth discussion on each of the four pointsor was this
a transparent attempt to revisit old arguments. Seems it can't be both. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:57, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
what I mean is that those prior discussions, so there was prior in-depth discussion? Those talk pages are fast moving, and the archives are already huge. If the discussion happened a couple months ago, does it being in an archive mean it no longer counts as prior discussion? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:37, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
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...not modify the signature on others' posts for any other reason.Barkeep49 (talk) 14:54, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
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WP:1RR and edit warring at Nasser Hospital mass graves:
They have not responded to my request to self-revert, but they have continued editing.
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I'm concerned by the amount of times recently that BilledMammal has opened up reports here, seemingly as an early line of interaction. I believe this needs addressing. TarnishedPathtalk 14:05, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Participants are also generally reminded that accusations of gaming the system require evidence and should not be made lightly; they are reminded to not cast aspersions when making such accusations.Making reports of actual violations of sanctions is the way it is supposed to work. The violation was brought up on the editor's talk page and was not remedied despite other edits being made, so it came here. We'll clarify 1RR and the expected behavior around self-reverting and be done here in just a jiffy. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:10, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Makeandtoss is warned to avoid (slow-motion) edit warring in the area of the Arab-Israeli conflict. The user is also warned to adhere to the area's topic-wide one revert restriction.
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believe [this] needs addressingwith no evidence of disruptive behavior. You then followed up with
I note that a lot of the cases that they've opened have been closed with no action.which doesn't seem to track over the past five months or so. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
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