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Before the 2 August 2022 deletion topic ban, TenPoundHammer nominated numerous articles for proposed deletion and articles for deletion. He also redirected numerous articles in 2022. This link shows the last 500 redirects he did before the 2 August 2022 topic ban. If you search for the text "Tags: New redirect Reverted" on the page, there are 189 results. At least 189 of the redirects he did between April 2022 and July 2022 were reverted.
TenPoundHammer continued to redirect articles on notable topics. Between 11 March 2024 and 16 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected 18 articles. Of those 18 articles, 14 were about television series (a topic I focus on): 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14. After spending many hours searching for sources, I reverted all 14 redirects and added sources to all 14 articles. For several of the topics (such as Queer Eye for the Straight Girl and Dice: Undisputed), sources could be easily found with a Google search.
Between 20 March 2024 and 21 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected three book articles (another topic I focus on): 1, 2, and 3. I reverted the three redirects and added book reviews.
Between 20 March 2024 and 21 March 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected 33 articles. Almost all of those redirects are in the music topic area which I do not focus on. I am concerned about the large number of redirects of topics that could be notable.
On 12 April 2024, TenPoundHammer redirected the television show Las Vegas Garden of Love with the edit summary "unsourced since 2010, time to lose it". I found sources for the article and reverted the redirect. I found two of the sources (The New York Times and Variety) on the first page of a Google search for "Las Vegas Garden of Love ABC". TenPoundHammer previously prodded this same article in May 2022, and another editor contested that prodding ("contest PROD, nom nominated 200 articles in a single day so it's impossible a BEFORE was done for each").
Analysis
Wikipedia:Fait accompli is an applicable principle. Reviewing this volume of redirects consumes substantial editor time. The redirects are leading to numerous notable topics no longer having articles. The redirects prevent the topics from undergoing community review at AfD, which TenPoundHammer is topic banned from.
It is unclear to me whether the existing topic ban includes proposing articles for deletion. I recommend that the topic ban be expanded to prohibit both proposing articles for deletion and blanking and redirecting pages since there is previous disruptive editing in both areas where he has prodded or redirected a large number of articles about notable topics. This remedy does something similar for a different editor in the same arbitration case.
"First choice, and my interpretation is that this should extend to PROD, given the evidence, even though it seems like a stretch to call most PRODs a discussion. ..." (link)
I assumed I was already topic-banned from PRODding articles, so I don't know why that was brought up. (Similarly, I don't know what the ruling is on deprodding but it's historically not been an issue for me, and I personally don't think it would be fair to deny me a chance to say "hey, wait, I can fix this".) Speed has been an issue, as has blunt edit summaries when I redirect something. Lately when I feel there is little to no content to merge, I try to spell out my WP:BEFORE steps in the edit summary when I redirect. I also generally don't unlink the page, to save the hassle if someone like Cunard comes along to revert my redirect and dump in some sources. One reason I don't try to initiate merger discussion is because no matter how hard I try, no one ever seems to respond. Witness Talk:Regis_Philbin#Proposed_merge_of_Joy_Philbin_into_Regis_Philbin, which opened two months ago and has had several reminders, but not a single person has lifted a finger. How long is that discussion going to gather dust? "There is no deadline" doesn't mean "do nothing and hope the problem somehow fixes itself". If I am to be topic-banned from WP:BLARing, then how can I get some action going in merger discussions? Since again, every fucking time I try, nobody acts like I'm even there -- but then two seconds after I give in and finally merge/redirect the damn thing, someone swoops in to revert me. I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 23:29, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am Involved here. TPH and I came up together on this project and occasionally ran into one another on country talk pages although it has been some time since we substantively interacted. I also have the utmost respect for Cunard's research at AfD in that they not only say "sources exist" but find and annotate them for participants to assess. This is especially helpful personally in east Asian language sourcing. That said, Cunard's case here is strong. TPH sees it as their duty to clean up the project, but I don't think their strong feelings are backed by our policies, nor is there a pressing need to remove this content. The project will not collapse and these are mostly not BLPs. If they are, someone else can handle it. I believe TPH's topic ban should be expanded to include BLAR which is a form of deletion. I have no strong feelings on PROD personally. StarMississippi 01:17, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support expanding the topic ban to BLARs. I really wanted to not do this, but TPH's comments above are very much in WP:IDHT territory. While editors are absolutely allowed to focus on specific aspects of the encyclopedia and its processes, TPH has been here long enough that using Google to assess for sources per BEFORE and including them (even perfunctorily on the talk page for others to edit into the article) rather than redirecting clearly notable topics is a reasonable expectation. Again, BEFORE-ish behavior is neither required nor expected outside TPH's self-chosen context of encyclopedic cleanup. Because using BLARs for deletion is a semi-end-run around the existing topic ban, expecting BEFORE behavior is not a too-restrictive burden. The fact is, TPH has been found to have used other deletion processes without appropriate discretion, and is now shown to have been doing the same thing using a different process. Again, this is not a novel problem, but a topic-banned user who is skating as close as possible to the topic ban and displaying ongoing problematic behavior. Jclemens (talk) 03:08, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Re: Billed Mammal: This is not a proposal for a general rule. This is a note that TPH has been engaging in less-than-optimal deletion conduct that, had he continued to engage in it over time, could result in a topic ban, in fact did, and TPH has continued to engage in deletion-like behavior within the limits of that topic ban. I'll note that BLAR notes If editors cannot agree, the content issues should be discussed at the relevant talk page, and other methods of dispute resolution should be used, such as restoring the article and nominating the article for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion. Since TPH is topic banned from AfD, nominating contested BLARs for deletion is off the table. Jclemens (talk) 20:31, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
TPH has been here long enough that using Google to assess for sources per BEFORE and including them (even perfunctorily on the talk page for others to edit into the article) rather than redirecting clearly notable topics is a reasonable expectation.
While a WP:BEFORE search may be a good idea, it isn’t one that there is a consensus to require - and it is one that there shouldn’t be a consensus to require until we place similar requirements, retroactively applying, on the creation of articles.
Wikipedia:Fait accompli is an applicable principle.
If we’re going to apply FAIT to the deletion of articles we need to first - and retroactively - apply it to their creation, otherwise we will have a situation where massive numbers of articles have been created in violation of FAIT but are almost impossible to address.
Further, I’m not convinced this is a FAIT issue; addressing previous FAIT issues is not itself a FAIT violation, even if done at a similar scale and rate.
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Conduct in deletion-related editing: Clerk notes[edit]
This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Conduct in deletion-related editing: Arbitrator views and discussion[edit]
I find the examples of WP:BLAR that Cunard presents to be troubling forms of deletion when taken in the full context. Cunard often presents more obscure sources or coverage that can be rather short but that is certainly not the case with several of the examples shown here. As noted in the case WP:BEFOREis not required but considered good practice when the main concern is lack of notability or sources. but for this editor, with this past, the lack of BEFORE when some high quality sourcing was available strikes me as an issue. Barkeep49 (talk) 04:02, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
TenPoundHammer was topic banned because of disruptive behavior in AfD discussions as well as issues around the closing of discussions. While Cunard has presented a not-unreasonable concern that TPH might not be the best at finding sources for articles, I am not seeing any major issues with conduct around the blank-and-redirect issue; redirects that have been reverted tend to stay reverted, without evidence of argument or backlash. These redirects also appear to be made in good faith. In other words, I do not think we are at the point where the BLAR activity by TenPoundHammer has reached a "disruptive editing" or "conduct-unbecoming" level that would require further sanctions. Primefac (talk) 13:19, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sympathetic to Primefac's analysis, but I draw a different conclusion. There is an existing topic ban from deletion discussions, and while it is not explicitly "broadly construed", and nor does blanking and redirect truly fall under "discussion", I think there is a reasonable concern raised to do with TenPoundHammer and the deletion process. In a different context, I would be more amenable to treating the situation as not-quite-yet disruptive editing or conduct unbecoming, but considering the existing topic ban, as well as a previous community sanction to ban TenPoundHammer from all deletion activities, I'm in favour of expanding the topic ban, potentially to cover deletion activities similarly to the community sanction. Maxim (talk) 15:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is a rough consensus of arbitrators that 1RR in the Palestine-Israel topic area refers to article content in the broad sense and so the talk page edits asked about here are not violations. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:41, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Here's a simple one. The 1RR general sanction says Each editor is limited to one revert per page per 24 hours on any edits made to content within the area of conflict. Does content include talk page messages, RFC statements, user talk messages, or is it confined to actual in-article content? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:12, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Kashmiri, that's just where WP:CTOP applies, not where individual sanctions that fall under CTOP applies, or in this case general sanctions that exist outside of CTOP. This means I could impose 1RR on a talk page that is part of the CTOP, or an archive, or any other page in that CTOP using the CTOP powers. It doesn't mean that the 1RR general sanction in the topic area applies to all pages in the topic area. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:15, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Kashmiri, not always and consistently. WP:ECR is a good example of this, even moreso before the most recent amendment. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:40, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just to be clear, Wikipedia:Arbitration enforcement log#User sanctions (CT/A-I) is not an example of healthy patrolling of a topic area. It is essentially just me patrolling, and SB when it comes to AE. I've scaled back my enforcement because one admin shouldn't be wielding that large an influence alone over the topic area, and because the incredibly large opportunity cost of already time intensive actions.
I think the blocking of the RFC is disruptive, but should I alone really be the one who forces a content discussion and blocks or tbans editors who disagree, and then spend the enormous amount of time necessary to defend my actions? I've also held off on closing any discussions in the topic area because I shouldn't be determining the consensus that I'm going to enforce. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:53, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Mainly out of curiosity, would it apply to hidden text within the article? I’ve always assumed it would, but I can see an argument now that it wouldn’t. BilledMammal (talk) 14:47, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Barkeep49: Just noting that there was discussion prior to the RFC (one, two, and I believe others), as well as multiple reverts back and forth regarding the disputed content by a variety of editors. BilledMammal (talk) 16:02, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Barkeep, where would you suggest dealing with it - would you recommend opening a discussion at AE or something else? (noting that SFR is, understandably, conflicted about dealing with it given how significant their exposure in the admin side of the topic area currently is, but that going to AE won’t get a much wider group of admins involved) BilledMammal (talk) 02:09, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The incident referenced by ScottishFinnishRadish, which coincidentally involves BilledMammal is not the first times BilledMammal has been involved in a 1RR debate. Actually two weeks ago (23 April 2024), BilledMammal made two separate reversions ([1] & [2]) six minute apart. When the editor who was reverted brought this up on BilledMammal’s talk page as a violation of 1RR, BilledMammal directly stated it was “not a violation”. I stalk BilledMammal’s talk page, so I provided my own thoughts on it and I echoed what ScottishFinnishRadish said: One revert per page unless it is direct vandalism that is clear. Further on this incident & my full TPS comment at User talk:BilledMammal#WP:1RR at Israel–Hamas war. Full clarification on whether that was a true violation of 1RR would also be helpful, as BilledMammal did not self-revert and brushed the incident off as not being a violation. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 14:14, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it really matters one way or the other, as both the articles and the talk pages in this subject are a disaster area, a kind of administrator-free zone in which incivility is rampant and WP:BATTLEFIELD conduct is normal. 1RR or 3RR won't make any difference on the talk pages. I think the substance of editor behavior, such as involved editors shutting down RfCs as BilledMammal complained about on SFR's talk page, is far more consequential. We're really here to discuss a side issue of limited importance. Coretheapple (talk) 15:39, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Barkeep49 True, the talk pages are a disaster area as I said, and repetition is part of the problem. Editors' time was wasted a couple of months ago in a lengthy, immense move discussion on Israel-Hamas war that commenced within days of a previous one was concluded. So yes, that kind of thing happens and it is just part of a general free-for-all atmosphere on these talk pages that includes repetition and also includes RfCs being closed by involved editors. One has to look at the whole situation, which includes a lack of administrator oversight. and incivility being treated as a suggestion and not as a policy violation. I view incivility as a kind of "broken windows policing" kind of situation. Once that breaks down, things get completely out of hand. Coretheapple (talk) 16:11, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps we should not stray too far from the principal issue here, do the restrictions apply only to article content, I am satisfied that question has been addressed, remaining issues can be dealt with elsewhere. Selfstudier (talk) 16:15, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Our policies are straightforward: This [Contentious topic] procedure applies to edits and pages in all namespaces. When considering whether edits fall within the scope of a contentious topic, administrators should be guided by the principles outlined in the topic ban policy. (annotation b at WP:CTOP). Thus, whenever 1RR is instituted on a page within the CT framework, it applies to all the associated namespaces as well as to subpages and archives. — kashmīrīTALK 17:11, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ScottishFinnishRadish We might need to go back to MediaWiki definitions. Programming-wise, Talk, User talk, File talk, etc., are all separate namespaces, just like User, File, Template, Draft, Wikipedia, Help, etc. Logically, however, MediaWiki has been configured in such a way as to link a namespace titled X_Talk with every other namespace, and to allow easy navigation between them. We thus have pairs of User and User_talk, File and File_talk, (Main) and (Main)_Talk. Of course, we all know it.
Now, whenever we talk about editing restrictions, we always, consistently apply them to the namespace pair. Filemover is a permission to carry out moves of the pair File and File_talk. An interaction ban includes posting to the pair both User and User_talk. Move protection similarly applies to the entire pair, as do, explicitly, CT sanctions.
It would be weird, unintuitive and very confusing indeed should revert restrictions under CT sanctions be applicable only to half the pair, epecially when ECP restrictions under the same CT sanctions arguably apply to both – as if quoting that Talk should be considered an independent namespace. — kashmīrīTALK 17:37, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ScottishFinnishRadish Well, ECR restrictions apply to the entire pair. Only, a limited exception has been made to allow editors make a single post of a predefined type of content in the Talk namespace. This is an exception explicitly named as such, not a rule. Similarly, we have TPA revocation, with the term reflecting its atypical construction. But otherwise, we consistently extend restrictions, access levels, etc., to the pairs, even when X_Talk namespaces are not explicitly mentioned. — kashmīrīTALK 17:56, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@M.Bitton, thanks for the quote from policy. I hope arbs will take a closer look at the policy wording and intent, and won't try to reinvent them here. — kashmīrīTALK 00:15, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I always assumed that it does. While The 1RR general sanction says Each editor is limited to one revert per page per 24 hours on any edits made to content within the area of conflict, the "area of conflict" is clearly defined in WP:PIA as edits relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict, to pages and discussions in all namespaces with the exception of userspace ("related content"). M.Bitton (talk) 23:34, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Palestine-Israel articles 4: Arbitrator views and discussion[edit]
I think that the intent of the sanction is to be specific to article content in the broad sense. More specifically, and in a technical sense, that means mainspace, but also anything that transcludes on the article (i.e. templates). My opinion is based on starting from the original 1RR restriction. Are there issues of edit-warring in this topic area outside of mainspace, such as in the example listed of talk page messages, RFC statements, or user talk messages? I would hope that normal edit-warring warnings and blocks could deal with that kind of edit-warring, but I suppose that if there is a topic area where such a hope is asking too much, it is this one. Maxim (talk) 12:38, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Maxim beat me to the punch, but my thoughts largely align with theirs; while "page" does usually mean "anything", I do not think WP:TPO violations should be subject to 1RR (which if I am reading the inciting incident correctly, is what is being argued). Primefac (talk) 12:40, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ScottishFinnishRadish, that is the discussion to which I was referring. Primefac (talk) 12:42, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WeatherWriter, just noting that two separate reversions... six minute apart is only counted as one revert per WP:3RR. Primefac (talk) 14:32, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I generally agree with Maxim and Primefac in stating that it is specific to article content in the broad sense. I would add as a further example of content, without being a page edit, would be moving as the name of the article is clearly a kind of content (and is listed in the article history accordingly, rather than just in a log). Barkeep49 (talk) 14:43, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think in most situations it would apply to hidden text. Hidden text is often used to say "Hey there's consensus for this" or "There is no consensus for that" and that would be article content in the broad sense. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:01, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Coretheapple: After reading here I was inclined to take a dim view of editors preventing an RfC. But I do agree with the general point that RfCs are costly for editor time and so jumping into one without discussion shouldn't happen even in a contentious topic. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:56, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So after reviewing BM's diffs and the history of the edits around this RfC I take a dim view of editors preventing this RfC. That is, however, not what we're being asked to clarify and issues here could probably be dealt with fine elsewhere so I just note it. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:57, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
BM: I have read SFR's statement about the sanctions log with interest, but I have been holding off saying anything because I am curious what my colleagues think. Barkeep49 (talk) 02:15, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So I spent some time today looking at 2024 AE reports in this topic area. And I am seeing a wider range of participating admin than just Seraphimblade and SFR (even though these two, especially SFR end up closing the threads). So to answer @ScottishFinnishRadish's question of where could probably be dealt with fine elsewhere is, I would say AE. One addendum/caveat to this comment: the more recent activity across all AE's (roughly the last 2 weeks) has been skewed towards those two. There could be any number of reasons why that is without suggesting trouble to me. So if that were to continue through the end of May that would be a different problem to look at than saying "AE doesn't have capacity to handle PIA issues" Barkeep49 (talk) 16:22, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with my colleagues above. I think Barkeep's suggestion of AE is excellent to deal with concerns with RfCs or non-article talk pages could be problem-solved, and if AE is not able to deal with it the next step would probably be ArbCom. Z1720 (talk) 17:39, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Amendment request: Article titles and capitalisation[edit]
The Manual of Style and Article title policy are jointly authorized contentious topics. Speaking for myself, I have {{Contentious topics/aware|mos}} on my talk page, because I was (and am) aware that the MOS is a CTOP. I was unaware until earlier today that article titles are also a CTOP bundled with the MOS CTOP, even though I was technically aware of the article title CTOP.
The MOS and article titles are related, but distinct, issues. I think they should be split into seperate CTOPs to reflect the fact that they are distinct issues. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 02:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding giv[ing] administrators an awful lot of discretion, I think that is the point of CTOPs: they give a lot of discretion to admins in areas that have historically been problematic. If admins abuse that discretion, that is a separate problem. We already have at least one CTOP (infoboxes) which covers particular discussions about an article rather than the article itself. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 15:21, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding Barkeep's comment, I should have been aware (in the conventional sense) that I was indicating AWAREness of article titles. That was completely my mistake. However, I still find it strange that this is a double-topic CTOP, and it is weird that I have to notify people who have never interacted with the MOS about its designation as a CTOP because they are involved in a dispute concerning article titles (or vice versa). HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 15:27, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Splitting the remedy is probably more trouble than it's worth. But while we're here: there hasn't been a logged sanction under this case since 2020, and that's probably because its scope is so narrow that most title- or MOS-related disruption isn't covered. Honestly there's a strong argument for just repealing it altogether, although the timing may not be right for that. An alternative would be to expand it to include RMs and the like (certainly there have been plenty of issues there), but that would give administrators an awful lot of discretion. The status quo of having the CTOP cover just the policy/guideline pages (which are often less contentious than the RMs) doesn't really make sense to me, though, and the lack of use suggests it's not doing much of value. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 03:13, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Article titles and capitalisation: Clerk notes[edit]
This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Article titles and capitalisation: Arbitrator views and discussion[edit]
FWIW, I'm not actually sure that the sanction from 2020 qualified under the scope of these sanctions. I would ping the admin who placed them but that admin is me (I thought they did at the time but have since come to doubt that). That said I've resisted including these when we've proposed areas to rescind because I know controversey remains. So where that leaves us here, I'm not sure, other than I wouldn't want to split them. In terms of not understanding their scope, the awareness template mentions Manual of Style and Article Topics so I think understanding that scope matters for the person saying their aware? Barkeep49 (talk) 14:44, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This page can be used by arbitrators to propose motions not related to any existing case or request. Motions are archived at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Motions.
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On Arbitration Committee review
Arbitrators hearing an appeal at a request for amendment ("ARCA") will generally overturn a contentious topic restriction only if:
the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or
compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action.
^The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.
^This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.
Appeals and administrator modifications of non-contentious topics sanctions
Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages (see "Important notes" below). The editor may:
ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision;
No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without:
the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or
prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below).
Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped.
Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied.
Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions.
Important notes:
For a request to succeed, either
(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or
(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA
is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.
While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
These provisions apply only to contentious topic restrictions placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorized by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature.
All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue.
Information for administrators processing requests
Thank you for participating in this area. AE works best if there are a variety of admins bringing their expertise to each case. There is no expectation to comment on every case, and the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) thanks all admins for whatever time they can give.
A couple of reminders:
Before commenting, please familiarise yourself with the referenced ArbCom case. Please also read all the evidence (including diffs) presented in the AE request.
When a request widens to include editors beyond the initial request, these editors must be notified and the notifications recorded in the same way as for the initial editor against whom sanctions were requested. Where some part of the outcome is clear, a partial close may be implemented and noted as "Result concerning X".
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More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated.
Closing a thread:
Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days.
Please consider referring the case to ARCA if the outcome is a recommendation to do so or the issue regards administrator conduct.
You can use the templates {{uw-aeblock}} (for blocks) or {{AE sanction}} (for other contentious topic restrictions) to give notice of sanctions on user talk pages.
There is consensus among uninvolved administrators to topic ban Cossde indefinitely from Sri Lanka, broadly construed. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:07, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Mentioned by name in the Arbitration Committee's Final Decision linked to above.
Additional comments by editor filing complaint
This page as seen weeks of WP:BATTLEGROUND and possible WP:NAT editing, with controversial content been added with single sources that are most cases primary sources that have clear conflict of intrests and even been labled "pro-rebal". Some other sources with WP:TRIVIALMENTIONS, that makes the content appear WP:OR. Request for more citations per WP:EXCEPTIONAL and WP:CHALLENGE have been refused. Hence I am requesting arbitration to settle this matter by establishing the quality, type and style of citations needed for this artcile.
Following attempts for dispute resolution have been tried:
In response to the comments made here, my stand is that if the admins here feel that a topic band for 30 days or one year to myself or to Petextrodon or both, so be it. However, I request that my band would be limited to Sri Lankan Civil War related topics since my edits on broader Sri Lankan topics have not been hot topics and I have been contributing for over an decade.
In the matter at hand I would request admin intervention to review the content dispute. I have raised this issue in RSN ([3]) and there has been no result. Clearly the article in question does not meet WP standards of WP:NPOV and I request an independent review, mainly regarding the poor sourcing and use of primary sources. In another RSN ([4]) it was mentioned that "As with other advocacy groups… caution is needed. Statements by advocacy groups are WP:PRIMARY sources… certainly reliable for verifying that they take a given stance on an issue, but not necessarily de-facto reliable for the accuracy of the background material used to take that stance." It is vital that this takes place now due to the WP:BATTLE ([5], [6], [7], [8], [9]) that’s is taking place regarding topics associated with the Sri Lankan Civil War, with a clear group of editors including Pharaoh of the Wizards editing on one side of this battle ([10], [11]). I am not surpised to see his support of Petextrodon, an editor who has no content contribution beyound Sri Lankan Civil War topics. Cossde (talk) 14:26, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(@ScottishFinnishRadish) RFCs on related topics have seen vote stacking. Cossde (talk) 14:30, 2 May 2024 (UTC) Moved to correct section. Please comment only in your own section; threaded discussion is not allowed at AE. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:08, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
And a call for vote stacking [12]. Cossde (talk) 04:55, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is too much of a coincidence that the same set of users appear in numbers on votes on articles related to the Sri Lankan Civil War. With some new users taking it for granted that there is a camp already formed to it as "us". Cossde (talk) 01:25, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
I don't think the issue is truly about the number of citations which is why user Cossde deleted even the content backed by two RS citations, Human Rights Watch and Routledge scholarly publication. More crucially, Cossde may be guilty of vandalism for repeatedly deleting sourced content [1][2], since no Wikipedia rule states that a content without more than one RS should be removed. Also, the user is well-aware that Wikipedia:WikiProject Sri Lanka Reconciliation/Sources classified the UTHR as RS long ago and recently classified NESOHR as a "Qualified source" that can be cited with attribution. As for Frontline (magazine), that's a mainstream news magazine that any reasonable editor can see meets the criteria of RS. As for Uthayan newspaper, I had repeatedly explained to this user in the talk page that it was a registered and award-winning Sri Lankan newspaper yet they weren't satisfied by this explanation and refused to explain why they questioned its reliability.
Cossde has a long history of deleting reliably sourced content [1][2][3] that are critical of the Sri Lankan government and its armed forces. To me this looks like WP:nationalist editing, especially given the blatant double standards this user has shown regarding the use of sources on multiple occasions:
Cossde significantly expanded the background section of the 1977 anti-Tamil pogrom by adding content from a report published by the Sri Lankan government; yet on the currently disputed article they contested the reliability of another report published by the same government.
Cossde has previously cited UTHR in other articles, but now they are not only questioning its reliability but deleting cited content from it.
They did not address their blatant double standards despite my repeated requests to do so in the talk page. It would appear from this to any reasonable observer that Cossde is more bothered by the nature of the content than the reliability of the sources. I hope the admins review the reporter's own behavior so the vandalism issue can be sorted and I wouldn't have to open a separate enforcement request against this user. --- Petextrodon (talk) 15:20, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Robert McClenon, Just to clarify, why should I be punished for contributing to Wikipedia? What rules have I broken? I'm being hounded for my good faith contribution by this user for the past several weeks and not vice versa. But I agree with you on the interaction ban as I have no desire to engage in pointless disputes and edit war with this user. I'm very much capable of reaching amicable compromise with users I disagree with as I indeed have on several occasions with another Sri Lankan user, SinhalaLion. But unfortunately it has not been possible with this user. --- Petextrodon (talk) 21:18, 1 May 2024 (UTC) Moved to correct section. Please comment only in your own section; threaded discussion is not allowed at AE. SeraphimbladeTalk to me 22:25, 1 May 2024 (UTC) [reply]
I'm requesting an extension of 105 additional words to respond to Cossde's statement. --- Petextrodon (talk) 18:48, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cossde didn't specify but listed me alongside others in WP:Votestacking accusation which I believe is unwarranted. In the Talk:Sri Lanka Armed Forces RFCs, I didn't ask any user to participate. Most responses were from uninvolved RFC community. In the Talk:Sexual_abuse_by_UN_peacekeepers, I did tag two users for their inputs as they are prolific contributors to Sri Lanka topic, but only after Cossde tagged two other uninvolved users for their inputs.
See no violation this is at best a content dispute which needs to be resolved elsewhere.Further there no CT alerts.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 14:21, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Petextrodon is dedicated contributor in the Sri Lanka area and see no reason for action.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 21:44, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have detail background but wondering whether really no scope for WP:DDE protocol? and any difficulties to go through WP:RfCs, or RfCs happened but did not mention in above difs? Bookku (talk) 16:44, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Cossde seem to have complained about WP:VOTESTACKING at RfCs. I suggest usually link the policy page so other user gets to know which policy you are talking about. Cossde's earlier sentence ".. This page as seen weeks of WP:BATTLEGROUND .." is general in nature, WP:VOTESTACKING at RfCs statement, too, seem general in nature. If complaint is about Petextrodon a) Need to be clear if Petextrodon too has any role in alleged BATTLEGROUND and VOTESTACKING with specific proof difs. On the other hand if statements are related but general concerns but not related to Petextrodon be clear about that too.
@ ScottishFinnishRadish, I have dotted down some observations and probable solution to my understanding for this issue in my sandbox page. If you find that helpful for this issue then, I will bring that over here. Bookku (talk) 15:29, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by Robert McClenon (another Sri Lanka dispute, another forum)[edit]
I am asking the administrators at this noticeboard to do something, because there are too many disputes between User:Cossde and User:Petextrodon. I am ready to provide a list of these disputes again, which I already provided to ArbCom in support of identifying Sri Lanka as a contentious topic, and especially the Sri Lankan Civil War, but I know that the administrators here know how to look up the record as well as I do.
User:Petextrodon alleges that User:Cossde's removal of sourced content is vandalism. It is not vandalism, and an editor who has been editing Wikipedia long enough to know what is vandalism should also know what is not vandalism, and POV pushing is not vandalism, although it is often reported as vandalism. However, Petextrodon's complaint should be treated as a counter-complaint of disruptive editing and POV pushing by User:Cossde.
Something needs to be done to curb these disputes. The obvious, but probably wrong, answer is to impose an interaction ban, because these editors do not like each other. The problem is that that will provide a first-mover advantage, and so may actually encourage pre-emptive biased editing. So I recommend that the first step be to topic-ban both of these editors from Sri Lanka for thirty days to give one or another of the administrators time to review the record in detail and determine which editor is more at fault, and extend the topic-ban to one year, or determine that both editors are at fault, and topic-ban them both for one year.
Robert McClenon (talk) 20:00, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
Hence I am requesting arbitration to settle this matter by establishing the quality, type and style of citations needed for this artcile. That isn't what arbitration enforcement is for. Have you opened an RFC on the sourcing disagreement? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Petextrodon, you are at your word limit. Please do not respond further unless you've trimmed some words or been granted an extension. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:44, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This looks to me like a content dispute. I do not see any action for AE to take here, as we can't resolve those. That said, I see that this same editor has now filed another AE request below on what also appears to be a content dispute, so I think we should evaluate there whether that conduct is reaching the point of disruption. SeraphimbladeTalk to me 23:39, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is consensus among uninvolved administrators to topic ban Cossde indefinitely from Sri Lanka, broadly construed. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:07, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Mentioned by name in the Arbitration Committee's Final Decision linked to above.
Additional comments by editor filing complaint
The use has began a enagenging in WP:Disruptive editing and WP:BATTLE in the article Tamil genocide. There is an active dissucssion going on in the talk page, however Oz346 has engaged in reverting edits made by myself and another in the lead over a period of hours today without engagaging in the talk page. However he has made no objection to the changes made by Petextrodon, who has completly changed the lead without disscusing in the talk page nore as Oz346 has personaly made changes without disscussing it in the talk page himself. Cossde (talk) 12:42, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ScottishFinnishRadish & @Seraphimblade, it was not my intention to weaponizing AE, however if you feel my actions are such, feel free to sanction me as you see fit, as I am ready to accept responsibility for my actions.
My intentions were to bring to attention the WP:NAT based WP:POV Pushing and WP:Disruptive editing that has been conducted by these to editors on topics related to the Sri Lankan Civil War supported by a broader cohort of sympathetic supporters, who seem to come to their aid (even in this AE). It is my opinion that these two editors have been attempting to weaponizing WP as part of a broader campaign.
Both Oz346 and Petextrodon edit histories only show editing in Sri Lankan Civil War content and no contributions to broader topics on WP. Although Oz346 has begun contributions on a new topic line in recent weeks.
Both Oz346 and Petextrodon had engaged in what appears to be WP:OR in the following pages using WP:Primary sources such as advocacy groups which was advised against in RSN.
Both Oz346 and Petextrodon had engaged in bitter WP:BATTLE on content issues on pages such as
1977 anti-Tamil pogrom - Content they prevented me from adding saying "reverted disruptive edits ruining the flow of the article with unnecessary details against the advice of other editors; either discuss in the talk page or wait for requested third opinion" [14], which was later cleared by a lengthy DRN
I agree to third party opinions and rulings (although both these editors don't seem to) i.e.. [15], [16]
Finally I have been subjected to multiple personal attacks ([17], [18], [19], [20], [21]), insults ([22], [23], [24], [25], [26]) and been threaten ([27]) by both Oz346 and Petextrodon, over the last few months that I have not brought up in this AE, however I feel I should at this point to give proper context. Cossde (talk) 01:42, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
I made no objections to the changes made by Petextrodon, because they replaced non-peer reviewed sources with several reliable scholarly sources, which any neutral observer can see [28] Does user Cossde dispute this? Does he prefer the previous lede, which he himself has been questioning? [29] I have justified my reverts and have not broken any edit war rules, and do not intend to go anywhere near WP:3RR in respect of the contentious topics designation.
Regarding point 3 and 4. I reverted to the status quo which had existed for months, and was the result of a long discussion a few years ago (which resulted in the various different death toll estimates being included). One of the sources that the user is questioning, ITJP was regarded as a reliable source on the RSN [31]. How can citing that with explicit attribution be regarded as POV pushing?
In addition, Cossde's point 5, goes against the consensus established at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Sri_Lanka_Reconciliation/Sources#List_of_sources, which explicitly states that these sources can be cited in Wikipedia. Yet he refuses to respect the admin led verdicts made there. This is not in keeping with Wikipedia consensus building policies. And now he accuses me of disruptive editing for following the projects' own guidance!
In addition, I believe that user Cossde has thus far escaped sanctioning because every time he gets reported, he submerges the discussions with reams and reams of text not directly related to the issues at hand. This prevents admins from properly assessing the actual individual issues (Which is understandable, as it would require a large time effort to sift through all the accusations and counter accusations, many of which are baseless [32], and inappropriately cite wikipedia policies). My humble request is to focus on the issues at hand and not get sidetracked. Thank you. Oz346 (talk) 12:49, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See no violation this is at best a content dispute which needs to be resolved elsewhere.Oz346 is dedicated contributor in the Sri Lanka area and see no reason for action.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 22:10, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am glad the admins are seeing this enforcement request and the request against Petextrodon for what they are: an editor involved in a content dispute trying to remove from the picture editors with opposing views so that they can impose their own POV on the articles under dispute.
Cossde has been at war with Oz346 for a year now. Their war has dragged in Petextrodon and number of other editors and impacted on numerous articles and noticeboards. The common denominator in all the disputes is Cossde. The alphabetti spaghetti of accusations that Cossde has made against Oz346 and Petextrodon can also be leveled against Cossde.
If admins are minded to take any action in either of the requests, they need to go through Cossde's contributions over the last year. They also need to look at the enforcement taken against Cossde throughout their time on Wikipedia. Five blocks for edit warring and sock puppetry. There's a 12 year gap between the first and last blocks. This clearly shows that they are incapable of changing their behavior.
As Robert McClenon stated in the first enforcement request, an interaction ban would provide a first-mover advantage, and so may actually encourage pre-emptive biased editing. Cossde has done exactly that with the enforcement requests: minutes before submitting the first request, Cossde removed 8MB on sourced content from an article under dispute where they was ongoing discussion on the talk page. I have no doubt that Cossde would abuse an interaction ban.--Obi2canibe (talk) 19:47, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
This and the report above are starting to look to me like weaponizing AE over content disputes. I've reviewed the diffs in this case, and nothing is standing out as disruptive editing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:52, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reviewing those diffs provided by Cossde firms up my initial impressions. There looks to be an NPOV and CIR issue. Seraphimblade, indef topic ban, or time limited? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:35, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ScottishFinnishRadish, I'm not a fan of timed topic bans very often at all, as people just tend to run the clock out on them and go right back to the same thing afterwards. An indefinite sanction certainly need not mean "permanent", but it does require that the editor subject to it come back with an appeal that shows they did productive editing outside the topic area, and have learned some things from that which will hopefully prevent the problems from happening again. SeraphimbladeTalk to me 19:54, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I like time and edit limited topic bans in some situations, but this doesn't seem like a circumstance that it would work. Looks like we're agreed. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:32, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to agree with SFR, and I really don't like the practice of dragging people to AE when they disagree over content. With that having happened twice in this span, I'm strongly considering some sanction on Cossde, which would probably be a topic ban from this area, but I'll give some time for them to respond if they want to. SeraphimbladeTalk to me 23:43, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
There has been a long running dispute at Israel-Hamas war over the contents of the third paragraph of the lede; following multiple reverts and at least two discussions that failed to resolve the issue or prevent further reverts (one, two) I opened an RfC. A few hours later, after three editors, including myself, had !voted in the RfC, Makeandtoss closed it. They had previously been involved in this specific dispute, both in the article (example) and in the discussions linked above. This close also violated WP:TPO, as it involved striking the contributions of other editors without falling under the exceptions permitted by that policy.
I reverted this out of process close, but a few hours later M.Bitton reclosed it. M.Bitton wasn't involved in the immediate dispute, but has been involved with the article, and has expressed strong opinions in past RfC's on related content (example).
This was a topic that was ripe for dispute resolution, with an RfC that had no issues sufficient to justify a premature close. Even if Makeandtoss and M.Bitton weren't involved it would have been a disruptive close, but it is particularly so because they were - by closing it early they have locked in a status quo that Makeandtoss explicitly favors and M.Bitton implicitly favors.
This was discussed previously at ScottishFinnishRadish's talk page, and then further at ARCA, where Barkeep49 said they take a dim view of editors preventing this RfC, and recommended bringing it here.
20:45, 14 October 2023 Page blocked from Israel-Hamas war and its talk page for 48 hours, for disingenuous edit summaries, edit warring, and treating Wikipedia as a battleground
Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 11:32, 11 July 2017 (see the system log linked to above).
M.Bitton
Gave an alert about contentious topics in the area of conflict to another editor, on 16:20, 6 March 2024
Additional comments by editor filing complaint
@Black Kite: In accordance with WP:RFCST, which permits editors to sign RfC statements with only a timestamp, I never sign RfC's I start - even ones like WP:LUGSTUBS2, which almost everyone will already know who opened.
I do this because I believe perceptions of the editor who opened the RfC may influence how editors perceive the RfC, and I don't believe that is beneficial to the process. As for the reverts, I made them because given that editors are explicitly permitted to not add their signature, I didn't believe it was appropriate for another editor to insist that they do, particularly given we generally have very strict prohibitions on editing another editors comments.
This isn't the first time that I've had a signature added, but normally editors accept when I revert them and explain that editors are not required to sign statements - this is the first time someone has tried to edit-war a signature in. BilledMammal (talk) 14:36, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Seraphimblade: To avoid any misunderstanding, I just wanted to say that I don't intend to start putting my username on any RfC's I start, regardless of how controversial - and personally, I would see this as one of the less controversial ones I've started. Editors are is permitted to do this, and there are valid reasons for not wanting to do so - and many experienced editors don't.
Regarding whether it was premature, I note that the two discussions I linked above are just a small fraction of the total number of discussions on this content; other examples include:
In addition, the content had been re-added and removed many times; I believed and still believe that it was time to hold an RfC and settle the debate.
Finally, I think it would be helpful to clarify whether it is appropriate for other editors to add a user name to an RfC they didn't start. My understanding is that it is not; that it is a violation of talk page guidelines, and that it adds heat to a debate. Perhaps if involved editors have concerns about an RfC being unsigned they should be advised to contact the editor who started it to attempt to resolve those concerns, and if that attempt fails contact an uninvolved admin? BilledMammal (talk) 21:42, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Makeandtoss and M.Bitton[edit]
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
As evidenced by BilledMammal's own links above, there was no prior in-depth discussion on each of the four points, nor was there any attempt at conflict resolution that are outlined in WP:RFCBEFORE, which considers RFC a last option due to its time-consuming nature.
What I did was simply strike through the RFC, an action that was easily reverted, and I stopped and did not take it further. It would be disingenuous to claim that I had closed it, an irreversible action. Nevertheless, I will ensure to ask an uninvolved administrator to do this in upcoming incidents, which is indeed a better course of action.
That aside, this seems like an attempt to deflect from BilledMammal's own editing behavior, as they created the RFC in non-neutral phrasing without signing it, and then went ahead to vote with a signature, which creates a misleading first impression. Not to mention BilledMammal's edit warring by reverting other editors four times within the course of two hours relating to this incident: [33], [34], [35], [36].
I sincerely hope to see the day when editors are more interested in constructively contributing to Wikipedia than taking editors they disagree with to AE every time something happens. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:36, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just realized BM has been banned from the article for a week for edit warring, so to add to M.Bitton's statement below, this now worryingly seems more like a Samson's death kind of situation. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:00, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ScottishFinnishRadish: and @Seraphimblade: First, thanks for the concerns. To add some context in response: I was blocked from that article on 14 October 2023, back when things were heated, and back when I did not completely understand what constitutes 1RR; I also wasn't able to appeal that 48 hour ban because it had passed while I was appealing. As for the second "sanction" on that article, I was warned for "slow motion edit warring" on that article backing in January 2024; because I had edited the same sentence multiple times in the lede over a few months according to developments on the talk page. Since then I have taken immense care to abide strictly by the guidelines at the article and across the topic.
My constructive and collaborative editing at the Israel-Hamas war article almost non-stop over the past seven months is evidenced by the fact that I am the third top editor by # of edits on the article having added 50k bytes and the 5th top editor on the talk page having added 70k bytes. Editing such a high-level and sensitive article while maintaining calm is not an easy task. Of course, striking through that RFC was a trout, which I have already pledged on SFR's talk page that it would not be repeated. The purpose of AE is to remedy behavior and not to punish editors. I really hope that a more balanced view of my editing is taken and that this minor mistake is not taken out of proportion. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:30, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I already explained the close when asked by ScottishFinnishRadish, so I won't repeat it here. I also wasn't involved in any of the discussions that led to RfC. Frankly, this report raises more questions than answers: if BilledMammal was really interested in SFR's advice, then why did they ignore it and why did they ignore the question that SFR asked them (about how to best formulate the RFC)? Someone who's starting a RfC for the benefit of the project would have no issue with what SFR suggested (working with others), but I guess that wasn't what they were after. Approaching me four days later with an ultimatum doesn't strike me as very constructive, especially considering the fact that I chose not to report them for violating 1RR multiples times. Bringing it to AE after raising it with SFR is just plain forum shopping. M.Bitton (talk) 11:11, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I dont think it was a good idea to shut down the RFC. But on the process, if a user is blocked from a page for edit-warring, are they allowed to pursue dispute resolution related to that page while blocked? Or is that not similar to an editor violating a topic ban by making a report about the topic? nableezy - 13:01, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But the edit-warring was on this talk page, and they are blocked from the talk page. But its your world boss. nableezy - 13:25, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Zero, you missed where they also moved a signed comment, which somehow isnt a TPO violation while adding an unsigned template supposedly is. nableezy - 13:58, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Barkeep49 nobody edited the signature, I added an {{unsigned}} template and when that was reverted a note, with my own signature, as to who started the RFC. Who started an RFC shouldnt matter, but when there is a dispute about the neutrality of the prompt then it obviously does matter. And, as WP:TPO says, attributing unsigned comments is perfectly acceptable. nableezy - 15:12, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Barkeep, that is not true, my initial edits were only adding an unsigned template. When that was reverted (twice) I added my own comment. Why exactly is BM moving my comment to place that decontextualized it entirely not a TPO violation? But what that portion of TPO is about is "attributing" comments, which is not simply a date and timestamp but also, obviously, a username. nableezy - 16:19, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SFR, as far as I can see one editor "edit-warred" over this, not a bunch, unless you want to make the leap that a single revert is now "edit-warring". nableezy - 16:21, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The way I see this is that BM attempted to have basically a first mover's advantage here. He created an RFC that had not had any input from anybody else, he left the prompt unsigned, and then he answered that RFC immediately. Other editors who had differing views would not have been prepared with sources and arguments the way he was to present his view. And given how RFCs attract views from uninvolved users who may not be as familiar with the universe of sources available as the editors involved in the dispute but rather often rely on the RFC arguments to formulate their view, he was giving himself the advantage of both framing the dispute and further presenting his own views unchallenged to any editors who were brought to the RFC through the normal means. The very least that should be done there is to inform others of the fact that the framing and the initial, prepared in advance, argument offered are by the same person. nableezy - 16:40, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My sole contribution to the RFC was to add the comment "+1. Not signed either." to Makeandtoss rejection of it, the RFCbefore being unspecified as well as a transparent attempt to revisit old arguments that had not produced the desired outcome from the openers perspective, awkwardly lumped together in a single RFC. I sympathize with the frustration that led to its untimely closure and frankly think that complainant should devote some effort to figuring out ways to spend less time at this board. Selfstudier (talk) 13:15, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ScottishFinnishRadish:Seems it can't be both Well, it can, I speak as someone familiar with the article and its history, what I mean is that those prior discussions were nowhere apparent at the RFC or even on the talk page, it being usual to specify an RFCbefore detailing them. I can try to locate the multiplicity of them in the talk page archives if desired, I assume OP knows where they are? Selfstudier (talk) 14:06, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ScottishFinnishRadish:does it being in an archive mean it no longer counts as prior discussion? That's the point, it is valid and that's why editors taking part in an RFC need to know about those discussions, generally I would link them as part of an RFC(before) Not all editors are aware of prior discussions of which there may have been several.Selfstudier (talk) 15:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ScottishFinnishRadish:Would a better, less inflammatory way to handle this have been pointing out those earlier discussions in the RFC discussion or bringing up that you believe they should be linked on BMs talk page rather than closing the RM or modifying the RFC statement? From where I'm sitting, which is quite frequently on the opposite side of the table from complainant, that thought is one step removed from what I see as the actual source of the problem, namely the opening of that particular RFC in that particular way in the first instance, then persisting with it when three editors came out strongly against the process. I would not personally have closed out the RFC but I don't disagree with it either, I think complainant should have done so themselves and we wouldn't be here, not for this at any rate. Selfstudier (talk) 18:22, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It should not set a precedent, but given all the circumstances, I suggest treating the RFC close as procedural in this particular instance. Selfstudier (talk) 18:36, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While BM is technically correct that an RfC does not have to be signed, when one of the principle disputants on a topic starts an RfC with their own preferences highlighted it is at least a very bad look if they refuse to have their name on it. And I mean "refuse", since BM twicedeleted a signature that was added using {{unsigned}}. If there is a positive explanation for that I didn't manage to think of it. Zerotalk 13:39, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just saying...WP:Signatures says "Typing five tildes will convert to a date stamp with the current date and time, without adding your signature". So, while it is true that five tildes are permitted in an RfC, it is arguable whether that counts as a signature for the purposes of TPO. Zerotalk 01:24, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In this instance I am uninvolved in the RfC (and am largely uninvolved in ARBPIA). I wanted to draw attention to BilledMammal's using their own !vote in their own RfC as evidence that it should remain open, which I take to be a rather peculiar argument. Of the other two !votes, one largely resisted the way the RfC was framed, while the other did accept the framing but only answered two of the four RfC questions.
So to me, BM's argument amounts to an assertion that the way it is framed makes sense to them (though others evidently disagree) and that they have voted in it therefore it must stay open. To insist on this, in spite of the lack of RFCBEFORE and quite evident flaws in the RfC's construction, strikes me as an attempted deployment of bureaucratic proceduralism unworthy of BM or of enwiki in general.
To then "seek justice against one's enemies" (Plato, not a wikipedian) in this forum, after having been banned temporarily from the Talk page in question, seems to me like a failure of judgement given the overwhelming lack of support for BM's framing of the RfC in the first place. The only likely outcome of that RfC, given the responses to it on Talk and on SFR's Talk, was a "malformed RfC" outcome, and I don't see how devoting photons and editors' time to hashing out that outcome would have served anything but BURO. Newimpartial (talk) 14:09, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, Ealdgyth - "seek justice against one's enemies" was an allusion to Plato. I'll try refactoring to make this more clear. Newimpartial (talk) 15:29, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To the uninvolved admin: BilledMammal has now expressed the intention od continuing to create RfCs without signing the RfC (and then presumably to !vote on them with a signature, thus obscuring the relationship between the RfC question and their !vote).
Therefore, to head off future disruption, I would appreciate clearly expressed opinion about whether it is appropriate to do so or whether this choice can be appropriately understood as disruptive. Comments to date have leaned towards BM's no-signature strategy being potentially disruptive (at least by my reading), but it would be great to have some more formal consideration before the next time a related confrontation occurs. Newimpartial (talk) 22:18, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have a view on this particular situation, but for context, I thought it would be useful to flag up that I have also experienced Makeandtoss shutting down an RfC after others have commented (see here). Number57 17:13, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Closing an RfP this way seems rather disruptive (per WP:RFC, An RfC should last until enough comment has been received that consensus is reached, or until it is apparent that it won't be). Usually users unhappy with an RfC would !vote Bad RfC and explain their reasoning. Why couldn't it have been done in this case? Alaexis¿question? 21:10, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was a complex RFC from the get-go, and seemingly not prompted by sufficiently rigorous prior discussion so as to actually warrant such a complicated RFC (the only linked discussions are a couple that appear to have simply petered out). RFCs are by nature time consuming for the community, and can also hamstring routine discussion and editing but putting a freeze on any topic covered by the RFC until complete. It is not in the project's interest to have a proliferation of badly scripted, overly complex RFCs floating around, and closing such examples down is quite sensible from a WP:NOTBURO perspective. There aren't many other avenues open for nipping bad RFCs in the bud. If everyone just attends and votes "bad RFC" then that's time-consuming participation. Alternatively, editors could try to petition the admin noticeboard for an admin to strictly enforce WP:RFCBEFORE, but if this is a routine action, it's not one that I've observed, even though WP:RFCBEFORE is in principle quite strict and, one might think, enforceable. This close was a no-nonsense attempt to strictly adhere to WP:RFCBEFORE, and perhaps recourse to the admin board would have been a better option, but the intentions appear reasonable. It feels like the best way to deal with an RFC that fails WP:RFCBEFORE is actually a bit of a grey area, and one that perhaps needs better clearing up. Iskandar323 (talk) 02:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would second Makeandtoss' reminder that sanctions are too prevent not punish, and I see little merit in punishing them for this very one-off and unlikely to be repeated episode involving an RFC. It is not clear that anything here forms part of a pattern of abuse, and the dust has now settled on this incident. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:53, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that RFCs shouldn't be closed so early by involved editors. However, on seeing the closure, I was glad it helped us avoid another heated discussion on that very Talk page that was extremely unlikely to produce anything resembling consensus. BilledMammal was right to write that perceptions of the editor who opened the RfC may influence how editors perceive the RfC, and so given their rather contentious editing history in Palestine-related topics, they decided not not to sign their name. Yet we were at it again. When going through the questions, I was disappointed (but not surprised) to find out how POV the structure was – it concerned adding inline attribution to the internationally accepted numbers of Palestinian victims of the Israeli invasion (inline attribution is not normally necessary and suggests an opinion, not a fact – our policy requires it if there is a disagreement between sources) or contrasting these numbers with Israeli-provided numbers of supposedly killed militants, even though the latter are widely considered unreliable and few media carry them. Judging from the past discussion history on that article and the POV split of the most active editors, this RfC was not going to end up in a consensus.
So, as much as the close was procedurally wrong, I'm of the view that it ultimately befitted that article and the wider readership. A trout for everyone, as Valereee wrote, and move on. — kashmīrīTALK 22:32, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lots of verbiage above but it's a simple issue. RfCs are not to be closed by involved editors. Involved editors who do so should get sanctioned, for this is a contentious topic area and there needs to be extra efforts made to enforce the rules, and I don't mean "trout slaps." Coretheapple (talk) 22:44, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
Although I don't think the RFC formulation is great, based on my experience as a closer, the formulation is not disruptively bad. There has been a significant amount of discussion on some of the points in the RFC, and there's something to be said for just heading to an RFC when it's obvious there will be no consensus through plain discussion. Editors thoroughly involved in a topic area should only be shutting down an RFC, closing discussions, or removing discussions when the material is plainly disruptive or in violation of WP:PAGS. Not following the advice on an information page to the letter, for me, does not meet that threshold. I have been approached by editors on several occasions about closing down RMs/RFCs that are retreading topics, but I'm loath to step in on such discussions because they are part of our formal dispute resolution. Involved editors should be even more reticent to do so. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:29, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nableezy, not like a topic ban. Normally the edit warring is in article space and I'll block just the article so they can only engage on the talk page. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:05, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Was there was no prior in-depth discussion on each of the four points or was this a transparent attempt to revisit old arguments. Seems it can't be both. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:57, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Selfstudier, what I mean is that those prior discussions, so there was prior in-depth discussion? Those talk pages are fast moving, and the archives are already huge. If the discussion happened a couple months ago, does it being in an archive mean it no longer counts as prior discussion? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:37, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Selfstudier, I don't want to make this seem as if you're on the hook for anything here as you simply made a comment at the RFC, so take this as a hypothetical. Would a better, less inflammatory way to handle this have been pointing out those earlier discussions in the RFC discussion or bringing up that you believe they should be linked on BMs talk page rather than closing the RM or modifying the RFC statement? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:52, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, rather than a bunch of involved editors edit warring and violating TPGs over this, why did no one seek to remedy any issues with the RFC on BMs talk page, or ask an uninvolved administrator to do so. User talk:BilledMammal#Talk:Flour massacre#Requested move 28 April 2024, for example, is how this could have played out. To me, this is just more evidence of battleground editing in the topic area. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:41, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nableezy, there were a bunch of involved editors, there was edit warring, and there were WP:TPG violations. All of that could have been avoided, except for involved editors, if not for pervasive battleground behavior. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:11, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a bit concerned about the "trying to avoid scrutiny for the RfC" bit highlighted by Zero0000. BilledMammal, why did you do that (twice)? If I'm submitting an RfC, I want my name on it so that people can discuss it with me. It all seems very ... I don't know, underhand? Black Kite (talk) 13:56, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Newimpartial - did someone say "seek justice against one's enemies" or did you use quotes for some other reason? I'm confused as to why that statement is in quotes - if someone (on either side of the dispute) is saying that about the other side that's not good. If it hasn't been said, it's not really helpful to throw that around like it IS a quote from someone, it just confuses uninvolved admins (like me) and, in my view, just ups the heat in the topic area. I'm going back to looking into this as my time permits ... Ealdgyth (talk) 14:52, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks - I was forced to read Plato in university but... I try REALLY hard to forget it. Still reading - I read SFR's plea for help in this area and am trying to formulate something to say that I think might help things (not that I think I'm going to have much luck with this but ... hope springs eternal) Ealdgyth (talk) 15:33, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have no intention of weighing in substantively on this request beyond a few thoughts that I had when this was at ARCA. In a talk page like this one which is active and with a lot of peristent editors, a lower threshold for how much discussion is necessary before starting an RfC can, in my judgement, be appropriate. The reason for this can be that there is a local consensus that is at odds with a project wide consensus and so lots of discussion would lead to a false consensus (and even accusations of bad faith RfCs that "relitigate" things already decided in discussions). It strikes me as incredibly important that we are very cautious before closing a major dispute resolution method to an editor, especially one who has demonstrated knowledge of Wikipedia policies, guidelines, and norms. An RfC for information that is in the lead also strikes me as more appropriate than RfC for information in the body of an article precisely because of the visibility/importance of having consensus there for me. Now it can also be true that someone who has repeatedly shown that they are at odds with project consensus about a topic can be disruptive in starting new RfCs. In looking at the last half dozen or so RfCs it did not seem like Billed Mammal fell into this second category but it's entirely possible there is better evidence out there on this front. However, given the evidence as I understand it I continue to take that "dim view" of editors using procedural means to potentially enforce a local consensus and perhaps even to seek sanctions against someone attempting to ascertain what the project consensus is through the written dispute resolution system. As for the signature bit I believe I start all my RfCs with ~~~~~ because who started the RfC should be irrelevant and WP:RFCOPEN explicitly allows it as an equally valid choice to ~~~~ . I have no idea if date/time sig rather than full signature is normal or not for BM and I hope the uninvolved administrators assess that - there are no shortage of RfCs started by BM - before judging the intent. If this was out of practice for BM that clearly signifies trouble but if it's normal for BM to operate that way - as it is for me - that sends a different signal. Now if someone were to change an RfC sig I started from 5 ~ to one that included my name (and I think this has happened once), I wouldn't do anything about that because let's have a sense of perspective about things. But I would be annoyed and I would think it a violation of WP:TPO given that editing of signatures is only allowed If a signature violates the guidelines for signatures, or is an attempt to fake a signature, you may edit the signature to the standard form with correct information and TPO is clear that editors may ...not modify the signature on others' posts for any other reason.Barkeep49 (talk) 14:54, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nableezy I wasn't going to respond to your ping because I mean it when I say that I want the uninvolved admin to be making the call here. But your this edit to your comment goes too far for me. WP:RFCOPEN explicitly allows for ~~~~~ and so the comment was appropriately signed, based on Wikipedia norms and practices. As such you were not fixing an unsigned signature, but instead (as I understand it) trying to make a point that the RfC was not neutral and were working to have the statements attributed to BilledMammal in order to help advance that point. I have offered no comment on the neutrality or not of the RfC. But trying to raise problems with a non-neutral RfC is not the same as a neutral fixing/improvement as allowed by the talk page guidelines, in my view. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:23, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nableezy: I'm not commenting on BM's comment move because that wasn't part of my analysis at ARCA and I'm not interested in substantively weighing in things at AE beyond what was discussed at the ARCA given that ArbCom is where the rare AE appeal goes; I expect that other uninvolved administrators will weigh that when determining what sanctions, if any, are appropriate to levy for this incident. Frankly I'm a bit flummoxed why you're continuing to debate with me - and attempting to shift the focus of discussion in this last comment. I have explicitly refrained from saying that your adding the unsigned template was wrong. That too goes beyond the analysis I've done. What I am saying that if it is BM's practice, as they've stated and so far no one has contradicted with evidence, to open RfCs with 5 tildes that this is supported by practice and norms. In that case their action is not a behavioral problem and so you cannot justify your actions based on the talk page guidelines. I have offered no opinion about whether your adding the unsigned template could be supported on other grounds. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:47, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think there's plenty not to love here. I am definitely not enamored of "anonymously" starting an RfC—if I'm coming to an RfC, and an editor involved in the discussion is the one who started it, I want to know that. It looks to me like RFCOPEN is more saying that the bot is able to recognize timestamp-only signatures, rather than actually endorsing that as a good practice. In any case, since it's clearly controversial, I would very much prefer not to see that done in the future here, but it's not actually against policy. What is against policy is to start an RfC instead of discussing a matter, rather than after a discussion has been held, and "open discussion on the matter first" should not be considered optional. An RfC is a significant investment of community time and should only be resorted to when absolutely necessary. RfC is often the result of such a discussion reaching an impasse, but if there's a plausible case that the result of the discussion was a "local consensus" that the wider community wouldn't support, it's appropriate to hold an RfC to call in people from the wider community who haven't been involved and I would not criticize that as being "re-litigating" or forum shopping. I think we've all seen cases where a small number of "owners" try to enforce something that the wider community wouldn't approve of, and bringing an RfC is a good way to draw attention to that and put a stop to it. But, whether an RfC is appropriate or inappropriate, involved editors shouldn't be shutting it down. So, I think in this case, trouts all around—the RfC was premature, the "anonymous" nature of it needlessly fanned the controversy, and even with that said, people involved shouldn't have closed it. If lessons can be learned from that without bringing out any bigger sticks, that's of course the optimal solution; if we find the problems reoccurring, then we'd have to evaluate that at that time. SeraphimbladeTalk to me 21:05, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to pretty much agree with all of this. I don't object to an RfC being unsigned if it's inarguably neutrally worded. This is on the edge for me. I don't object to an RfC being opened in contentious topics possibly slightly early if there's been some discussion. Again on the edge. I do object to edit-warring over signing; once it's been objected to, just let it go. I do object to involved editors closing an RfC early. Trouts all around. Valereee (talk) 21:21, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's worth noting that Makeandtoss has already been warned for edit warring in the topic area and blocked from this article for battleground conduct. To me, we're past the level of a trout in this instance. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:04, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the interests of moving this along. I know you're generally not a fan of time-limited topic bans, but I think this topic area is one that can benefit from time-limited topic bans, allowing a cool down for an editor, and hopefully a cool down for the real world circumstances. At the least it can allow for some firming up in sources on the issues that are being discussed. Would you be amenable to 90 days in this circumstance? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:18, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
I've been offline for several days as I've been finishing my finals and traveling home from school, so just now seeing about this. These edits were made to preserve the status quo on the article, since typically with disputed removal of content we resort to keeping it then discussing, rather than deleting it then discussing. The special restriction on reverts for this specific topic I simply forgot about when I made the edits. Should I go back and revert the second edit now? Dylanvt (talk) 13:21, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’ve self-reverted for now.
I didn’t notice the request on my talk page until the same time I saw this one here, as I’d only had access to my phone between May 6 and May 9, due to travel. When I finally got on my laptop last night I saw both notifications, and replied here this morning. Dylanvt (talk) 16:48, 10 May 2024 (UTC) Threaded discussion is not allowed at AE. Please keep your responses in your section. Thanks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:08, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm concerned by the amount of times recently that BilledMammal has opened up reports here, seemingly as an early line of interaction. I believe this needs addressing. TarnishedPathtalk 14:05, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
[reply]
@ScottishFinnishRadish, I don't make an accusations. However I have noted that this one particular editor has been here over and over. I note that a lot of the cases that they've opened have been closed with no action. I note that this has take up a lot time. TarnishedPathtalk 14:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure your searching ability is as good as anyone else's. Perhaps I've been incorrect about the number of cases closed without action. TarnishedPathtalk 14:43, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ScottishFinnishRadish, I've striked my comments. Apologies to all. I should have searched the record prior to making incorrect comments rather than relying on my obviously imperfect memory. TarnishedPathtalk 01:24, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dylanvt, yes, you should revert now. Also, did you not notice the request for the self-revert on your talk page when making other edits after the request was made? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:26, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I plan on closing this in the next day or two with a warning to mind 1RR unless there is input from anyone else. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:44, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
TarnishedPath, this was addressed before, resulting in the following warning, Participants are also generally reminded that accusations of gaming the system require evidence and should not be made lightly; they are reminded to not cast aspersions when making such accusations. Making reports of actual violations of sanctions is the way it is supposed to work. The violation was brought up on the editor's talk page and was not remedied despite other edits being made, so it came here. We'll clarify 1RR and the expected behavior around self-reverting and be done here in just a jiffy. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:10, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
TarnishedPath, so far this year, from what I just pulled from the archives:
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive328#Makeandtoss January 24, Makeandtoss is warned to avoid (slow-motion) edit warring in the area of the Arab-Israeli conflict. The user is also warned to adhere to the area's topic-wide one revert restriction.
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive329#Sameboat March 1, Editors involved generally in this article are warned to use dispute resolution, not the revert button, to settle content disputes. Whether or not xRR rules are breached, repeated reverting may be treated as a disruptive edit war. If there is a return to edit warring on this article, there is a fair chance that multiple editors involved in it will be, at minimum, restricted from further editing the article at all, and wider sanctions may also apply.
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive330#Salmoonlight March 12, Salmoonlight (talk · contribs) is indefinitely topic banned from making edits anywhere on Wikipedia regarding the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed. This topic ban is per consensus of uninvolved administrators in this arbitration enforcement thread. Participants are also generally reminded that accusations of gaming the system require evidence and should not be made lightly; they are reminded to not cast aspersions when making such accusations.
TarnishedPath, that would be casting aspersions with no evidence. You brought up behavior that believe [this] needs addressing with no evidence of disruptive behavior. You then followed up with I note that a lot of the cases that they've opened have been closed with no action. which doesn't seem to track over the past five months or so. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 11:20, 14 April 2024
Warned by another user about 1RR violation on 10:45, 14 April 2024. Did not self-revert.
Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I typically don't mind trivial 1RR violations if they were made in good faith. However, it struck me that the user had made hundreds of copy edits, from 20 to 31 March 2024, spamming categories to articles, in order to pass the 500 edit requirement for extended confirmed protection. Subsequently, they solely began editing controversial ECP articles in an aggressive manner. Additionally, it concerns me that the user was previously blocked for not disclosing their paid editing. Ecrusized (talk) 18:20, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've added the names of the articles above their diffs, if that is what you meant. User was warned about previous 1RR violations and enforcement. I have not warned them about their latest reverts since those edits have already been undone by other editors. Ecrusized (talk) 19:11, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Hi, everyone
My name is Gal, Gal the teacher (in Hebrew with English letters it comes out GALAMORE). I entered Wikipedia because I wanted to write about technology, I wrote the article on Perplexity.ai (which received 568,902 views so far!!), after I wrote about a few more high-tech companies I was temporarily blocked and warned not to engage in business matters probably for fear of receiving money for it.
Almost every morning, before I start teaching, I go to Wikipedia to edit and I enjoy it very much.
I am Israeli, so the Israel related topics interest me.
If it is relevant, politically, in Israel I believe in peace with our neighbors and want an end to wars.
When I see something that is biased, I try to balance it and bring sources from both sides.
Even if there is an Israeli editor who makes claims that are "in favor of Israel" but are not substantiated, I will correct it - because I truly believe in balanced coverage of topics. I am not obssessive to my edits, I just enjoy adding information and I think it is productive to humanity.
On this occasion, may I ask where and when can I request that the prohibition to write on tech companies be removed? Galamore (talk) 07:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In their edit summary they said Kerem Shalom was closed due to the Hamas attacks, and now reopened, this is wrong and outdated.
The first part of their claim appears to be correct; the source provided for the content says:
But Israel closed the Kerem Shalom crossing after a Hamas attack on Sunday killed four soldiers in the area, then mounted an incursion on Tuesday that closed the Rafah crossing along the border with Egypt.
The GHM's casualty reports have received significant attention during the course of the Gaza–Israel conflict. GHM's casualty reports are considered credible by two scientific studies published in The Lancet.
To:
The casualty reports issued by the GHM during the Israel–Hamas war have been subject to significant scrutiny. While some advocate for their accuracy, others cast doubt on their reliability.
This change appears defensible based on the body which includes claims that the figures are reliable alongside claims that they are unreliable. BilledMammal (talk) 19:20, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding Warned by another user about 1RR violation on 10:45, 14 April 2024. Did not self-revert.
Since Selfstudier has linked it and it relates to two of the editors involved here, this comment, which was made by Ecrusized, wasn't appropriate in my opinion:
the latest change seems to come from virtually inexperienced editors, Galamore and GidiD with a heavy Israeli bias
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
Ecrusized, can you break the 1RR violations down by article, and have they been warned about or asked to revert any 1RR violations? I don't see any engagement about that on their talk page. No comment yet on possible OR issues. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:44, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Black Kite and Drmies: just making sure you're aware this thread is here. The reported 1rr violations don't seem to be violations, but I am concerned about the edit warring over content that socks and editors banned and tbanned by Arbcom had been edit warring over. I try not to judge content choices unless there is a clear issue, and the edits to the lead are a summary of parts of the body. I think NPOV is a bit lacking, but it's not flagrant and I'm not sure if that alone is enough for action. Combining that with the history of the content being edit warred over brings me a lot closer to a sanction. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:41, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What I said at the AN/I thread: Speaking as the administrator who a few months ago indeffed Galamore as a suspected UPE, after they wrote several extremely promotional articles about non-notable subjects: this doesn't seem like gaming the system. This seems like somebody -- I despise more than anybody for this to be true, but I must admit it -- editing in good faith, or at least not doing anything visibly wrong, along the rules that we explicitly tell them that they have to follow. If we don't think that "500 edits and one month" is enough for someone to edit CT articles, we shouldn't have thousands of words of policy teling people, repeatedly, in no uncertain terms, that making 500 edits and having an account for a month is required to edit CT articles. jp×g🗯️ 19:38, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
JPxG, are you at all concerned about their continuing an edit war primarily edited on one side by socks and people banned by Arbcom for off-wiki canvassing and proxying? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:13, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On the issue of the sanctioned topic in its own right, I defer to the judgment of persons such as yourself. jp×g🗯️ 08:10, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't had the chance to dig into this yet (though I will try to over the next couple of days), but I will say that such guidelines should not be treated like black-letter law which can have "loopholes". We can take an extreme case, say that an editor makes an account, waits thirty days, and then runs a script which adds and then removes a single character from their sandbox 500 times. It is perfectly valid, in such a case, to say "That is not what we meant, and that doesn't count. Make 500 real edits before you start editing in this area." SeraphimbladeTalk to me 02:28, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, if it is literally somebody adding and removing a period from their sandbox that is one thing, but if it's five hundred non-deleted, non-reverted edits that improve the articles they're being made on, we have to accept that this was what we told people to do. jp×g🗯️ 08:07, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As I mentioned at the AN posting about this, I saw the edits when they started editing in ARBPIA, and they looked constructive enough where I didn't take any action then. Those types of edits combined with immediately leaping into a long-term edit war that has been pushed by a sock, and had been supported by editors banned by Arbcom for off-wiki canvassing/proxying is more concerning, and I think that is where we should focus. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:20, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seraphimblade, I'm thinking a topic ban of 6 months and 500 edits in this circumstance. That forces more out-of-topic contributions, gives them more experience, and puts them further from any sock/proxy/canvass concerns. I'm also okay with no action if you're not convinced. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No action taken at this time as the matter is already being discussed at ANI. There is no prejudice to raising this issue here again if the ANI discussion ends without resolution of the matter, but we shouldn't have multiple threads open on the same issue at the same time. SeraphimbladeTalk to me 19:58, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
24 July 2021 After Utada Hikaru has come out, UA changes the pronouns in the article from they/them to she/her without consensus.
25 October 2021 Launches a malformed RFC with an innapropriate comment on Tamzin's identity Tamzin's comments as a she/they NB supporting using Utada's last known pronouns (she/her) help break the POV mold.
26 October 2021 Argues they/them are "gramatically incorrect" as opposed to "real pronouns" in a discussion about Utada
26 October 2021 when Tamzin asks them to stop with their repeated use of gramatically incorrect/real pronouns[37], they apologize but this is their defense: Historically, I have not had the greatest experiences with transgender people when talking about subjects relating to being transgender, whether it be ones I've taken part in or ones I've simply observed. (Tamzin, you're actually the first one I've had a civil conversation with, or even seen for that matter, and I really do appreciate that).. The comment is edited to expanded to make it more offensive,[38] before being toned down.[39]
27 October 2021 When Tamzin leaves a kind explanatory message, they admit they occasionally resort to stereotyping when not in a good mood and apologize, saying they try and stay out of GENSEX.
11 November 2011 changes came out as non-binary to expressed frustration with traditional gender roles in Utada's article according to their WP:OR.
25 November 2021 Launches a malformed RFC on the lead of J.K. Rowling and begins to edit war with editors trying to fix it.
1 March 2022 Asks for page protection with a generalizing comment about nonbinary people Common target for enbies to force exclusive use of they/them into a she/they enby
22 March 2022 Describes being LGB as a sexual deviancy repeatedly.
4 July 2022 When asked for a source definitively saying a character from Stranger things isn't gay instead of "it's indeterminate", provides one saying "it's indeterminate". A user notes that on the talk page.
28 January 2023 misgenders a transgender character and removes relevant categories.
5 May 2024 this is one instance of their repeated claim that LGBT editors can have COI's due to their identity: while it is true that often LGBT editors can escape the Conflict of Interest concerns, this seems to be an attempt at absolving the editor even when there clearly is a conflict of interest, like in this discussion (I have noticed that quite a lot of the "keep" !votes are coming from LGBT editors).
5 May 2024 They remove the example accepting transgender children in a slipper slope saying Anything regarding transgender youth is too controversial to be here. They continue to remove parts they disagree with and slow motion edit war with multiple other editors with many misleading or nonexistent edit summaries.
17 May 2024 I want to stress they argued it's too controversial to say marriage, adoption, or parenting should be restricted to heterosexual couples. is a queerphobic proposition.
17 May 2024 Tells me I should You should really remove the "friendly" part of your username and patronizingly tells me that he understands I feel strongly about not removing trans youth from the essay since I transitioned as a minor, but we can't shut down real debates
Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 25 October 2021 (see the system log linked to above).
Additional comments by editor filing complaint
The user originally started by edit warring over My Hero Academia and was warned by multiple editors, which accounts for their first ~700 edits across multiple forums, noticeboards, and talk pages.[40] I believe their contribution record, comments from others at the thread at ANI they started to complain about my behavior where they freely admit to having a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality, and their talk page shows they have problems with edit warring and strong feelings in general.
I believe the evidence above shows their disruption is particularly heightened in the GENSEX topic area, despite claiming to avoid it. This has been an issue for years. Their conduct at WP:No queerphobia and its associated MFD has been particularly disruptive. I made comments I regret and struck or clarified in response to their latest edits to the essay and for the record would like to apologize for my incivility towards him, but I believe he is still disruptive to the topic area (regardless of whether or not his views are queerphobic), he has a problematic tendency to group editors by LGBT status, and a TBAN may be necessary. At the minimum, a page block from WP:No queerphobes.
@JPxG I wanted to show it was a long-term issue and they've been warned. If an admin allows me 100-200 more words and 10 diffs I can highlight specifics of their conduct around WP:No queerphobes.
A taste, May 4 2024, they say it definitely shows POV pushing and editing in one's own interest that I'm sick of people saying all trans women who aren't straight are fetishists. Their incivil comments about me and queer people predated mine towards them.
If an IB means "UA can redefine anything in the essay they want and I can't comment" - I can't support it. If it means "they can write a counter-essay and I won't try to delete or rewrite it" - I fully support it. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:48, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
13-17 all relate to the same page. If you made this AE yesterday, I'd gladly be blocked from editing that specific essay if you reported me yesterday, but I had just come to an agreement with Licks-rocks, so it's up to others if they want me to no longer edit that page. I want to stress that I didn't actually agree with 16, but I was following advice from another Non-Endorser, Ficaia. 1-6 plus 8 all refer to the same page as well, and that was because Utada still used "she" pronouns in many then-current sources, before her social media outright listed she/they. I wasn't the only editor arguing this, nor was I the most prominent. That leaves five unique pages. The Simpsons AfD (12) was out of redundancy concerns, as all of the characters either had their own page already or were non-notable gag characters. The Family Guy edit (11) was because I was removing vandalism where the transphobia page was wrongly linked several times. The JK Rowling RfC (7) was because I felt that people put undue weight on recent news. For 9, at the time I didn't know people considered asexuals as LGBT (I still don't understand, but I'm no longer warring over it). I had no excuse for my phrases in 9, 3 and 4, but my views have changed in those three years. I don't group editors over their sexuality anymore unless there's a clear pattern where one side is mostly openly LGBT and the other side isn't. 10 was me seeing what I thought was original research, as I specifically remembered reading that Stranger Things interview.
As for the edit war when I started my account, that was exasperation at constantly reverting to a preferred version, in spite of multiple users agreeing that a lot of the content was wrongly removed, being considered "not warring", as well as an name-calling from the other user in said edit war, who didn't contribute to the discussion after said incivility. Once Serial Number and I directly interacted for the first time in years when he complained about me at ANI, he submitted misrepresented evidence against me; in most of the diffs in his comment where I supposedly can't listen to other users, I had come to agreements with said users soon after(example), which he conveniently left out. As JXpG suggested,
I'd like a two-way interaction ban between me and YFNS; SN54129 as well, because I can't trust that the latter will criticize me in good faith. In both of these cases, it's clear that I don't react well when somebody is being blatantly uncivil towards me, as both users have shown. My reactions are probably inappropriate, but they're not unwarranted since the other party is usually uncivil first, which is why I think my Ibans should be two-way.
@Seraphimblade: I think the discussion should be redirected here rather than ANI, as my grievances with one user I initially reported have seceded, while another user conduct dispute was reignited after years of inactivity because of the ANI discussion. I think the ANI discussion should close and discussion redirected here due to the user report switch. I'll also reiterate than I'm volunteering myself for two two-way interaction bans. If YFNS and SN54129 both agree with two-way interaction bans, then this case can be ended fairly easily. Unnamed anon (talk) 01:56, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose I am involved here because I commented at the AN/I thread about these same diffs running concurrently to this AE request (Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Your_Friendly_Neighborhood_Sociologist_and_User:Licks-rocks_civility_concerns). I also commented at the MfD for this essay, where I said it ought to be userfied (which it apparently now has been). This AE request feels like basically the same thing as the AN/I thread, which is "one of the participants in a vicious talk page argument wants the other person gone".
The diffs in the post opening this thread go back three years, which, well -- if you have to go back three whole years to find stuff to make a case, I think the case might not be that strong. They are also presented in the worst context possible: e.g. the thing about recommending that YFNS remove "friendly" from her name was not some random remark, it was made in the context of a several-week-long discussion in which YFNS was saying stuff like "In any case, cry as much as you want" and "If I was a little less inclined to assume that what seems to be constant dogwhistling from you is genuine concern, I'd say you were a queerphobic troll".
All editors inherently edit topics they find interesting. Just because an editor writes about something does not mean they have WP:ADVOCACY problem. But there is a line between the two. The commenters ultimately agreed that TheTranarchist has passed this line: she goes beyond interest into trying to mold the topic area to fit her worldview. That is incompatible with Wikipedia. She has become a WP:TENDITIOUS editor. Given all the factors discussed, there is rough consensus for an indefinite GENSEX topic ban.
Now, while we're on the subject of "reports don't need to be made in good faith for the issues they mention to be serious and worth action" -- this may well be true here, and UA is acting pretty out-of-pocket. I think that something in the general shape of a two-way interaction ban may be appropriate here. I am not an "AE guy" so I cannot say for certain what's the most likely to actually have a meaningful positive impact.
Further comment (sorry if this busts me on word limit): in re "doxing" claim against Serial, see this screenshot of the menu I have on every IP talk page; the link he posted was from this; well within the bailiwick and propriety of normal editing.
Since I have been name checked, can I ask admins to request examples of the incivility I have used against User Anon. Without diffs... well, of course they're aspersions. ——Serial Number 54129 22:54, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
anon|talk]]) 23:02, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
It looks like there is already an open ANI thread about this matter, and we should generally not have multiple discussions open about the same matter in different places. Unless an uninvolved admin shortly objects, I'll close this with no action, with the option to bring it back here if the ANI thread ends without resolving the matter. SeraphimbladeTalk to me 01:19, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]